Athens , 18 January 2010

Mr. Tolios: We have Alternate Foreign Minister Dimitris Droutsas on the line. Good morning.

Ms. Karagiannis: Good morning, Mr. Minister.

Mr. Droutsas: Good morning and a good week to you and your listeners.

Ms. Karagiannis: Let’s hope for a good week and a good year. Mr. Minister, I assume that when the Prime Minister tells his Cabinet that the country’s financial problem is a threat to our national sovereignty, you – with pending foreign policy issues to handle – are the first to shudder.

Mr. Droutsas: Well, Ms. Karagiannis, I think every reasonable person and each of our fellow citizens realises that when the country is experiencing challenging moments – our country’s current situation is a challenge for all of us – and when you have to defend the national issues in foreign policy, some of our collocutors might try to take advantage of these difficulties.

Mr. Tolios: You’re right, Mr. Minister. And can I tell you something? Because this is being commented on in the analysis we see. Because the government – in a climate of aspirations – initiated its diplomacy aggressively with Mr. Papandreou’s first meeting with Mr. Erdogan, today …

Mr. Droutsas: And with Mr. Gruevski, as well.

Mr. Tolios: With Mr. Gruevski, etc., etc, there is an issue in the sense that a country that is overwhelmed or at least out of breath – that’s its image abroad – to what extent should it enter the diplomatic arena with such an aggressive policy, rather than backing up a little, in the sense that we are facing our basic opponent, Turkey – a power that is constantly upgrading its position in the region.

Mr. Droutsas: I think you expressed the argument yourself, and I would use it not to justify it, but to point to its necessity. And this is what we did. This is what the government did from the very outset: take initiatives; show that it is not playing just defence, if you will. That, yes, we know what situation the country is in, we are aware of the issues we have to address, but from the very first moment we are taking initiatives to show our will; to show that we can and want to confront the situation, but that we also want to point the way.

Defensiveness never helps. Allow me to say that the defensiveness we saw over that past 5 years – and not just defensiveness, but inertia – in our foreign policy led to the country’s current situation.

Ms. Karagiannis: Mr. Minister, you are describing what could be called an extroverted policy.

Mr. Droutsas: Of course.

Ms. Karagiannis: I’d like us to look a little at the Cyprus issue, given the visit to Athens of the President of the Republic of Cyprus. The recent forecasts and analyses have it that things aren’t going at all well, particularly with regard to the new proposals submitted by the Turkish Cypriot side and ahead of the presidential elections and the likely election of Mr. Eroglou.

Mr. Tolios: The state of affairs is not favoured by these elections.

Ms. Karagiannis: I would like to hear your opinion on this and how Greek foreign policy is shaping the framework for its moves in the coming time.

Mr. Droutsas: Of course. Before I go into that, Ms. Karagiannis, allow me to answer the first part of your question. Without question, our national issues are at the focus of our efforts and they always will be. I would just like to stress here that if you focus exclusively on your own issues – and defensively, at that – you will have difficulties. That is why our approach is open, so that Greece can once again have a real presence and a real voice in our region on all the major, international developments. A presence and a voice, so that we can utilize this new position of Greece effectively for our own purposes; our own issues. I just want to clarify that.

Mr. Tolios: As Ms. Karagiannis said, Mr. Minister, Greek-Turkish affairs and the Cyprus issue are currently in a fairly difficult place, bearing in mind Turkey stance. Isn’t that the case?

Mr. Droutsas: Of course. These are not ideal circumstances. It is not the best period of time, but you will allow me to say with regard to the Cyprus issue – on the occasion of the visit of the President of the Republic of Cyprus, Mr. Dimitris Christofias, to Athens – to reiterate and to stress what the government and the Prime Minister himself has said from the very moment we took office: Greece will once again be at Cyrprus’s side, at the side of the Cypriot people, not in words, but in deeds.

I think we showed this at the December Council and in the preparations leading up to it, when important issues concerning Greece and Cyprus were discussed. Greece and Cyprus really moved together, prepared systematically and, with a common voice, were present at and fought for our cause at the December European Council.

Mr. Tolios: What you are saying is very good.

Mr. Droutsas: Yes. It is precisely this line that we are following and that we want to follow in our cooperation with Cyprus. This concerns the Cyprus issue, of course, but allow me to say that the Republic of Cyprus is a member of the European Union, so there are a number of issues where there is great potential for real cooperation between Greece and Cyprus.

Mr. Tolios: All that is fine, Mr. Minister. Meanwhile, however, today we see a state of affairs, looking at the proposals of the Turks, who are pro-Annan, much tougher …

Ms. Karagiannis: Particularly with regard to governance.

Mr. Tolios: The issue is to what extent one can have expectations or hopes or, in any case, see light – that we can really reach a solution on the Cyprus issue in this state of affairs. I think that most people are justifiably pessimistic.

Mr. Droutsas: You are not at all wrong. We don’t have the indications that would enable one to be particularly optimistic. I, too – when the latest proposals were submitted by the Turkish Cypriot side – made this comment when asked. That, yes, of course we are very disappointed because these proposals are a step backwards – they aren’t in the right direction. So, yes, we don’t have the factors we would need to be very optimistic.

But this doesn’t mean that we are throwing up our hands again. We will try here, with our own proposals, with our own moves, to convince everyone of what the right direction is.

Mr. Tolios: In essence, anyway, Greek diplomacy is being tested, in the sense that you described very well and very intensely the scene taking shape in Greek-Turkish issues. If we go to the FYROM issue, we have the same thing; we have an intransigent Gruevski, we have a similar scene, which also leads us to …

Ms. Karagiannis: Inertia.

Mr. Tolios: Not necessarily inertia, but we may have fresh vetoes, which aren’t the best thing that could happen for Greek diplomacy, if the issue of NATO membership is raised again. What I want to say is that the scene around us is not at all optimistic.

Mr. Droutsas: Once again, you are not mistaken. I cannot disagree, but once again, the fact that the other side is exhibiting such an intransigent stance doesn’t mean that we shall stop our efforts. If we stop our efforts, we are in a defensive position, and sooner or later we will be under pressure again. That is why we are using aggressive diplomacy – in the positive sense of the term, with proposals and initiatives – to show the way. That is what is important.

And allow me to say the following: Greece has no reason to hide. We have self-confidence because we have clear positions that we have made known to all sides from the very outset. This gives us our self-confidence, and we have no reason to hide. We will try to show the right way through appropriate initiatives. That is our stance and policy.

Ms. Karagiannis: Mr. Minister, is there any truth in the appraisals that the Skopje issue and the recession in general – the economic recession in Athens – is casting a lot of shadows on our relationship with the U.S.? And I’d also like to ask when your visit to Washington is scheduled for.

Mr. Droutsas: We are in consultations with the U.S. side at this time and I think that my visit and the Prime Minister’s visit will take place soon – they will be announced.

Ms. Karagiannis: Will your visit be within February?

Mr. Droutsas: It may well take place very soon, but please allow me to announce it when all of the details have been settled.

Ms. Karagiannis: Will you answer the first part of my question?

Mr. Droutsas: Of course. There are no shadows over our relationship with the United States. There are no shadows in our relations with any country, because – I stress once again – we have clear positions that derive from and are based on international law. So this has to be respected. And frankness makes for good friendships. There may be disagreements on certain matters of approach, but you don’t need to agree on everything to have exceptional and excellent relations. And we have such relations.

Ms. Karagiannis: The visa issue with the U.S. side?

Mr. Droutsas: That is an issue that is being resolved and I think we will be able to make it official soon.

Mr. Tolios: Mr. Minister, to come back to the issue of the U.S. – where we had Ms. Clinton’s intervention recently, etc., I mentioned the veto earlier. Greece has already used its veto for FYROM at NATO. One can overuse one’s veto. I say this because, on the one hand, we are brandishing a new veto on FYROM’s accession to NATO; we are brandishing a second veto if NATO moves ahead – it won’t concern you so much as the Defense Ministry with command of Larissa, whether it will alternate or be ours. Isn’t it a little difficult for us to move in this direction with a veto in our hand?

Mr. Droutsas: Mr. Tolios, let me make a clarification, because I heard the word veto a number of times. And the word veto may have come into fashion, and we hear that when you use a veto you are showing forcefulness. Let me clarify this and make it crystal clear. Greece will of course not hesitate to exercise its right to veto if need be. There is no question there. But the veto has not been used in this sense.

Because when a decision requires unanimity, you make your preparations. You find allies, you find countries, partners who agree with your position. So the matter does not even come to the vote in that sense, where Greece would have to say no by itself; would have to use its veto. I stress it once again, however, to avoid any misunderstanding. Should the need arise, Greece will never hesitate to use its veto on its own.

Mr. Tolios: We say this, Mr. Minister, so as not to hide …

Mr. Droutsas: Let me just add something, as you are referring to the issue of Skopje’s accession to NATO, and there may be some difficulty here. Let me remind you that just two or three weeks ago, NATO Secretary General Rasmussen met with the Skopje leadership, and in a joint press conference with Mr. Gruevski, Mr. Rasmussen once again reiterated and stressed this decision from NATO: that without prior resolution of the name issue, there is no accession to NATO. So things are very clear.

And things are equally clear in the European Union. Prior resolution of the name issue is a prerequisite for the opening of Skopje’s accession negotiations with the European Union. There is no longer any room for debate here. Here we have the clear Greek proposal and our national red line. We are waiting for Mr. Gruevski and the FYROM side to come to the negotiating table – at long last – in a constructive manner.