Ms. Karanasopoulou: Deputy Foreign Minister Mr. Spyros Kouvelis is on the line with us. Good morning, Mr. Kouvelis.
Mr. Kouvelis: Good morning. Thank you for your kind words which I will pass on to my...
Ms. Karanasopoulou: They are intended for the Ministry, not you personally.
Mr. Kouvelis: Precisely, yes. I will pass them on to my colleagues, the people who work at the Ministry making sure that our work progresses swiftly.
Ms. Karanasopoulou: I know this from my own experience. I’ve been working with these people for 17 years.
Mr. Kouvelis: Right, yes.
Ms. Karanasopoulou: If I’m not mistaken, you just arrived from Baku.
Mr. Kouvelis: Just yesterday afternoon, yes.
Ms. Karanasopoulou: What did you do in Baku, Mr. Kouvelis?
Mr. Kouvelis: A meeting of the BSEC Council of Foreign Ministers was held In Baku. This cooperation goes back 17 years and brings together many countries on the Black Sea, together with Greece, Albania, Bulgaria, of course, and all the other countries around the Black Sea.
This meeting and this organization do not have political content, i.e., a forum, for example, like the OSCE which has its own policies and tries to find political solutions on certain issues, but is rather more aimed at cooperation on development, economic issues.
I think that its work is very, very important, because if we are able to find solutions through this cooperation in order to improve living conditions, to improve cooperation, then the diplomatic, political/diplomatic issues, if you will, become much easier, as you can understand.
Ms. Karanasopoulou: Other countries have understood much earlier that economic diplomacy is vital. We delayed, because – as is reasonable – we have problems that others don't.
Mr. Kouvelis: Nevertheless, Ms. Karanasopoulou, if I may add one comment on that, and I think it is our government’s priority, we should put much greater emphasis on economic diplomacy – this is the aspect that I am working on mainly at the Foreign Ministry – because we think that, precisely as we have said, it gives us the opportunity to be a few steps ahead of having to resolve problems, so that instead we can create solutions as soon as possible.
Ms. Karanasopoulou: And I think that our most problematic area now is the economy, so...
Mr. Kouvelis: In one way or another. Exactly.
Ms. Karanasopoulou: It will need your Ministry’s help as well.
I would like to say something else, Mr. Kouvelis. In a few days, we have the European Union Summit.
Mr. Kouvelis: Yes.
Ms. Karanasopoulou: And in some strange way, in contrast to the usual thorny issues, the thorny issue this time has been the issue of climate change. So no compromise on financing was possible at the ECOFIN Summit, I don’t know how talks progressed at the Council of Environment Ministers or how the discussion will develop at the Summit.
But we still have time, everyone points out that it is very important for the Union to come out with a single voice, a firm position and an advanced position at the Copenhagen Summit, for Europe to be the spearhead, if you will, in this area, but the portents do not look good.
Mr. Kouvelis: You were very precise: the biggest problem in the EU was mostly at the ECOFIN. Because the issue is something more than the goals that Europe should set for the level of CO2 emissions cuts in order for Europe to be able to play a leading role; we must also see how we will finance these cuts.
And this is precisely where things started to get difficult, because there were voices within the European Union, there were certain countries that want a very, very specific burden-sharing, but at the moment we do not have the time for such burden-sharing. In other words, this work should have started much earlier, there was no time for it to start earlier, and so we are heading towards the Summit without the agreement of certain countries.
My hope, and I believe this, is that we will be able to reach an agreement on the EU common position at the Foreign Ministers Council, at the Summit, but the question is how strong this agreement will be, how innovative our target will be. This is the first part of the equation.
The second part is that on the other side of the Atlantic, the Obama administration has also waged a major battle, and I know this because I happened to be in the U.S. when this effort started in order for legislative provisions to be introduced in their own system, in order for them to be in an advanced position as well, and once again, time was not enough and it is doubtful whether President Obama will be able to pass these legislative acts through the Senate so as to come to Copenhagen. These are the two sides, the two major players...
Ms. Karanasopoulou: But the way you painted the picture, Mr. Kouvelis, we are threatened with a major shipwreck in Copenhagen, not just a European shipwreck.
Mr. Kouvelis: This is precisely what we are worried about. Because I think the European shipwreck will be averted. And it will be averted because there are many EU countries with the political will to exert pressure.
But what will come out of Copenhagen in the end, whether we will have an agreement or not, I’m afraid – although I want to be optimistic – that I am cautious in this particular case. Because if we don’t have a very strong position on the part of Europe, if the field is not clear on the part of the U.S. and at a time when we know that all other major emerging powers (such as China and India) are in any event reserved...
Ms. Karanasopoulou: They have every interest in there not being an agreement.
Mr. Kouvelis: Exactly. There is a chance we might not end up anywhere. And this leads us to the conclusion that there will either be a shipwreck, which is the worst that could happen, or that the whole process might be prolonged for a while.
Ms. Karanasopoulou: Or a muddle.
Mr. Kouvelis: Precisely, yes. And this is the worst that could happen because we all know – whether we have strong positions or not – that climate change requires decisions, we can’t delay them any longer.
Ms. Karanasopoulou: Mr. Kouvelis, can I ask you something: If this whole effort were being made when there wasn’t an economic recession, would it be easier?
Mr. Kouvelis: Honestly, with my hand on my heart, I don’t think so. Nothing would change. It is more a matter of a significant number of countries changing. That is what we are pursuing in our country: to try through our vision for green development to change the way we think the development process works. If there were a reservation along the lines of “Oh, we shouldn’t distance ourselves from fossil fuels, because that is what they did before us, and that is development,” then nothing would be achieved.
On the other hand, however, it is precisely my personal assessment that we must capitalize on these conditions as an opportunity to make the change. To put it simply, when I was in Baku recently, we had bilateral collaborations with Azerbaijan. This is a country that has very recently become very rich from fossil fuels, right?
Ms. Karanasopoulou: Yes, of course.
Mr. Kouvelis: What is interesting is that Azerbaijan itself requested cooperation with Greece in order to develop renewable energy sources. And it made this request because it sees that that is where the future is. So if we can …
Ms. Karanasopoulou: Does Azerbaijan know how far behind we are in this?
Mr. Kouvelis: Look, we are behind in terms of actual implementation. We are not behind in know-how. Greece has extensive know-how on these matters, we just have to resolve our institutional issues, and I am certain that the Ministry for Energy and the Environment will achieve this.
Ms. Karanasopoulou: But we have a problem with the Council of State.
Mr. Kouvelis: That is exactly why we need these institutional changes, so that we can get out of this rut.
But to come back to what I was saying, I think that if we see this as an opportunity to create new technologies, new development initiatives for these sectors, energy saving and production from renewable sources, then we can have a new “economic boom”. This is essentially the message that has to be got across to the countries that have reservations.
Ms. Karanasopoulou: Well, I don’t think there are reservations in Europe. There are reservations about certain issues: cost.
Mr. Kouvelis: Yes, yes. And there are reservations in certain countries. Because on the other hand there are very strong targets. You may also have heard the German Environment Minister, the Prime Minister of Finland, of Denmark, of Sweden, who are ardent supporters of our going to such forms of energy and binding proposals as to where we want to get on European emissions; our Prime Minister, who is among the European leaders …
Ms. Karanasopoulou: No, I think that at the Councils they get very heavy with those who raise objections.
Mr. Kouvelis: Precisely, precisely. But you know how Europe works – perhaps better than I do. There is the potential for one country that disagrees to block the whole process.
Ms. Karanasopoulou: Yes, in many cases. Not in all, but in many cases.
Mr. Kouvelis: Yes, in many.
Ms. Karanasopoulou: But in any case, if three countries get together, they can easily block the system.
Mr. Kouvelis: Yes. And essentially, we are not talking about blocking through veto. We are talking about a blockage that that says, “yes, I want more clarifications, I want more discussion to see where this will go.” When there isn’t any time, this is in effect blocking the process.
Ms. Karanasopoulou: Yes, exactly that. That is why I say “block” instead of “veto”, because it isn’t that one country can shelve it – it is more bureaucratic, let’s say.
Mr. Kouvelis: Exactly. And here, we are running against the clock. How long do we have? About 50 days? Less than 50 days until Copenhagen.
Ms. Karanasopoulou: Practically speaking, it is a month if one takes into account the meetings and councils.
Mr. Kouvelis: Exactly. So we have a very narrow margin of time.
As far as Greece is concerned, I know that – obviously in the meetings I have, and Mr. Droutsas, as well as our Prime Minister, Mr. Papandreou – we raise this agenda as high as we can so that we can have a binding commitment on climate change, and I believe that from now until Copenhagen we will try to organize as many initiatives as we can, whether on a bilateral level or with a larger target.
Ms. Karanasopoulou: Does that mean that you will be coming to the Copenhagen Conference with us, Mr. Kouvelis?
Mr. Kouvelis: Certainly. March always falls within Lent.
Ms. Karanasopoulou: Yes, I often say that about myself.
Mr. Kouvelis: No, it is true that I have monitored the Summit Meetings since Bali, and it is really very interesting for one to be there when one can have an impact. I went to the two previous Summits in my parliamentary role.
And I think it is helpful for the parliamentary team to be at these meetings. And for the Copenhagen Conference this year, we have begun good preparation in close cooperation with the Environment and Energy Ministry, and one of the first things we said was that we want to have an open line with the Hellenic Parliament, so that in terms of the Parliament – the Committee for the Environment, I assume – there can be representation of all the parties if possible, so that the MPs can get involved, too.
Because you know, when the time comes for us to institutionalize things in order to implement the agreement that we hope will result from the Conference – or any agreement – the MPs have to have already been involved in the discussion, rather than coming in after the fact.
Ms. Karanasopoulou: At least so they understand what they are voting on.
Mr. Kouvelis: Exactly. And the whole picture and importance of this for the regulations we are trying to pass. This is very important.
Ms. Karanasopoulou: Mr. Kouvelis, I thank you and wish you success, and above all for there to be an agreement.
Mr. Kouvelis: Exactly.
Ms. Karanasopoulou: And in an initial phase for there to be an agreement at the European Council amongst the leaders, at least the Europeans. That is, for there to be a Union position, first of all. Let’s start with that, and then we’ll see.
Mr. Kouvelis: Exactly. Let’s see what happens. We will push for it as hard as we can.
Ms. Karanasopoulou, thank you very much, and have a good day.
Ms. Karanasopoulou: Thank you, and have a good weekend.
Mr. Kouvelis: You too. Goodbye.