Below is the full transcript, translated from the Greek, of Foreign Minister Nikos Kotzias’ interview with the German television networks ARD and ZDF, on Saturday, 7 March 2015, in Riga.
JOURNALIST: Mr. Minister, what is your assessment of the EU’s stance on the Ukraine issue?
N. KOTZIAS: We have already said that we want peace in Europe, peace and stability in Ukraine. We support the Ukrainian government in its struggle to ensure the country’s independence and safeguard its sovereign rights. Apart from that, the issue is of particular interest to us because there are some 160,000 Ukrainians of Greek origin residing in Mariupol today. Mariupol is just 10 km from the region where the hostilities of the separatists have stopped. We are the only country that is on the front line, monitoring the situation on the ground through our Embassy and the Mariupol Consulate. I am proud of the economic and medical aid that has been sent, and we are doing everything possible for there to be a channel of communication, so that the aid can reach its destination.
JOURNALIST: Are you satisfied with the EU’s stance on Russia?
KOTZIAS: The EU’s stance on Russia was formulated with the input of Greece, and I am satisfied with that stance.
JOURNALIST: Will the sanctions issue be discussed?
N. KOTZIAS: We are a country that has already imposed sanctions. Twenty years ago, Greece imposed sanctions on FYROM. That was a mistake. From our experience, we must say that it is not certain that sanctions will be constructive or successful. The sanctions we support are those that will allow Russia to sit at the negotiating table. We are not in favor of sanctions that induce anger. Our goal is for Russia to respect what was agreed on in Minsk, to put the agreements into practice.
JOURNALIST: Do you think that has been achieved?
N. KOTZIAS: The sanctions that have been imposed created economic problems in Russia, but that, in my opinion, is not the point – and that should not be the aim of the sanctions. In recent days, Russia has shown its will to honor the Minsk Agreement. I recently had the opportunity to express my gratitude to Germany and France for everything they achieved.
I hope that to have the opportunity to talk to German television’s ARD and ZDF about Greece’s problems, too, and the way in which some German media see Greece and present the Greek people.
Last week, in Paris, we had the opportunity, during the meeting of the EU states of the Mediterranean South (Euro Med Group), to talk about the issue of separatists. Separatists are a fundamental issue in foreign policy. The difference with the jihadists from south of Europe’s borders is that the jihadists are also an issue for internal policy. It is very important for us to talk about stability in the South. It is very important for us to find solutions for stability in the region, in the Middle East, the Libya issue. Yesterday, we discussed the Libya issue in depth.
JOURNALIST: Do you think there is too much discussion of Ukraine in the EU?
N. KOTZIAS: The discussion should not be limited to the issue of Ukraine or the issue of the jihadists, but should also include the future of Europe and our vision of the Europe we want to have. We need to return to the European values. I am very concerned about the extent to which the younger generation in Europe, and especially the younger generation in the countries of the South – whether today’s pupils will be happy with Europe in 10 or 20 years, whether they will be in favor of Europe, when today they are hearing constantly about sanctions, penalties and memorandums. We have to talk to this European generation about other things as well, and not just about penalties and other actions that are necessary in international disputes. Europe is not just sanctions and penalties. We need to say that Europe is a positive vision and that we need to work harder for that vision.
JOURNALIST: If I understand correctly, you will veto the sanctions.
N. KOTZIAS: When we are in the negotiating stage, I cannot talk about the negotiations, because then they aren’t negotiations.
JOURNALIST: That means …
N. KOTZIAS: It means absolutely nothing. We will negotiate and we will see how we move ahead. There are countries that are in favor of the sanctions, and there are other countries that are being hit hard by the sanctions. My country is experiencing an economic crisis, and the embargo that has been imposed is costing us and our agricultural sector a great deal. I understand the countries that do not have economic relations with Russia, I understand the countries that are in favor of imposing sanctions, but they don’t comply with the sanctions. But there has to be a conversation about what will happen with Greece and the economic problems created for us by the imposition of sanctions – how the losses from the sanctions can be recouped.
JOURNALIST: Some observers believe that Greece will threaten to veto if it doesn’t get economic assistance.
N. KOTZIAS: The veto is among the rights that Greece has within the EU. It is, if nothing else, odd for us to be talking about a threat when one is using what is provided for by the EU. It is not a threat – it is the mechanisms guaranteed by the provisions of the EU Treaties. And, second, there are countries that, due to their power, do not need to use the veto, because they can impose their will through their power. We never used our right to veto without reason, and we will do the same on the Ukraine issue. No one needs to feel that they are being threatened. We should discuss things at the negotiating table and achieve a win-win situation in which both we and our partners come out as winners. I cannot understand a policy where only some of our partners win and we only increase our losses.
JOURNALIST: For you there is a connection between your consenting on the issue of the imposition of sanctions and the continuation of economic assistance.
N. KOTZIAS: I never made such a connection when talking about the issue of sanctions. But we should look at how the economic losses arising from the sanctions can be recouped. This is in no way related to economic assistance. What I’m saying is that the sanctions issue is hurting the economy. Additionally, there are NATO countries, small as well as large countries, that are benefiting from the sanctions. We have to discuss all of this. We cannot have just some of these countries benefiting from the sanctions while other are again taking losses. All of the countries should win together and lose together. I wonder at the discussion that has taken place recently in the German media regarding our stance on the sanctions issue, but I cannot understand why no one is saying anything about those NATO countries that are not complying at all with the sanctions. That is unilateralism.
JOURNALIST: Let’s talk a little about the issue of how the German media see Greece.
N. KOTZIAS: There are many, many stereotypes. I would like to make something clear. I am a friend of Germany. I love Germany – I said this in Berlin, too. My wife is German, so I have familial relations with Germany. I understand Germany and I consider myself a politician who knows Germany. Apart from that, I believe that Germany is, deep down, a philhellenic country, because it achieved self-determination through ancient Greek philosophy and political convictions. Greece and Germany have always had friendly relations, and I try through all of my actions to support these relations. But with regard to the German media’s coverage of the Greek crisis, I would say that there are many, many stereotypes. Recently, following the latest agreement, we had banner headlines in German newspapers saying “Not a cent for Greece,” which is certainly a lie, because in the last agreement our issue was not money.
Another issue that is brought up often in the German news media is the issue of the money that Germany has lost due to the Greek crisis. The exact opposite is the case: In a direct or indirect manner, Germany made some €80 billion from the Greek economic crisis. We have to talk in numbers, and not have one side wanting to mislead the other with pseudo-moralistic posturing.
Another of the stereotypes is that a whole country, a whole people, have certain negative qualities – stereotypes that, of course, in no way correspond to reality. Stereotypes that say that all Greeks are thieves, slackers and liars, despite the fact that all the European statistics say that Greeks work more hours per week than all the other Europeans. We have 60% youth unemployment in Greece right now. We have to talk about and look at what is going to happen with this young generation, what stance this young generation will take on the EU if they don’t have work and constantly hear about sanctions. Alright, I understand that Greece needs to be penalized, that all Greeks are bad – let’s say I accept all of that. But we need to look at what is going to happen afterwards. What I say constantly is that we need to look at what is going to happen in the future. We need to have a positive, win-win situation …
What I also want to say is that Germany found a wonderful settlement with regard to its debt through the London agreement of 1952-1953. Germany had lost a war, a catastrophic war, but the issue of the loans it had taken out during the 1920s was settled. We cannot have worse terms (for debt repayment) for Greece today – terms worse than those instituted for the Germany that had lost a whole war. We have to talk about this issue. Today, Germany say’s constantly that it paid the whole of its debt, which of course isn’t true, and that we are liars and frauds who don’t what to pay back what we borrowed. The country that did not pay its debt following World War II was, first of all, Germany. This happened through the London Agreement. What does this Agreement say? For Germany to be able to pay its debt, there has to be growth, to which all of its partners contributed. Thus, 3% of its foreign trade was earmarked by Germany’s partners for the repayment of debts.
What agreement do we have for Greece? An agreement that has led to the loss of some 30% of our social product. If our economic power falls, how is it possible for us to pay off the debt? We need a similar settlement, like the one in 1952-1953 for Germany. At that time, no one said that Germans were thieves and slackers. The Germans are a hardworking people with many capabilities, without a doubt.
What we need is a policy that will take us to growth. And this is the difference between us and some of our partners, with the latter insisting on the continuation of a policy that had negative results like high unemployment and the destruction of industrial production and the social fabric. We need a different policy. We need to stop with the pseudo-moralistic arguments, just as we need to stop attacking one another. And let me end by saying one more thing: You know, we need to decide on what we want. Do we want there to be growth so that Greece can pay off its debt, or do we want to destroy the country? If we want to destroy the country, then we need to think the impact that that would have on a geopolitical level, and particularly in the Eastern Mediterranean.
And one last thing: We have corruption scandals in Greece. The perpetrators of these scandals, Greeks, are currently living in Germany. The German judiciary should at long last give us the routing numbers so that we can have proof of who was bribed in Greece. On cannot argue based on pseud-moralistic appeals while, at the same time, these people who caused the scandals, like Mr. Christoforakos, of Siemens, are in Germany. This needs to stop. The German justice system must disclose their deposits. We are against corruption, we are against the wealth that arose from corruption, but Germany needs to stop hiding people who have perpetrated such major fraud.
March 9, 2015