E. VENIZELOS: It is a great pleasure to welcome my colleague the Foreign Minister of Turkey and my good friend, Ahmet Davutoglu, who is visiting Athens today, reciprocating the visit I paid to Ankara a few months ago. Naturally, this is not our second meeting, because we have also met in New York and Brussels, in the context of the UN General Assembly, and in the framework of NATO and the European Union.
We had the opportunity to talk initially with Prime Minister Samaras, then one-to-one, and, in the third phase, with our delegations, about all the issues of joint interest, and we will continue our talks during the working luncheon.
I set out for Mr. Davutoglu the priorities of the upcoming Hellenic Presidency of the Council of the European Union, because many of these priorities interest Turkey, are linked to Greek-Turkish bilateral relations, are linked to critical aspects of the policy we are implementing in the space of our common interest, which is Southeast Europe, the Western Balkans, the Eastern Mediterranean.
We agreed that the next meeting of the Greek-Turkish High Level Cooperation Council, the third meeting, will take place following the European elections that will be held here, and following the presidential elections that are to be held in Turkey.
We already have very rich material from the two previous meetings. We have the obligation to complete the ratification process for many of the contractual texts, and we have a very strong foundation for our cooperation on issues of economy, entrepreneurship, development – with the top sectors being energy and tourism.
In the energy sector, in any case, the new pipeline, the TANAP, which will cover Turkish territory, and the TAP, which will then cross Greece and Albania, is a new, very important development. A development that enables us to develop other initiatives, not just related to the pipelines, but in relation to the diversification of sources of natural gas. Moreover, cooperation in the energy sector in the Mediterranean has potential for renewable energy sources, not just for oil and natural gas.
It is important that Turkey is prepared to sign, with the European Union, with the European Commission, a Readmission Agreement, so as to facilitate us in our efforts to confront the major common problem that is illegal migration. Always with respect for international law, always with respect for refugee status for all those who, in accordance with international law, have the right to that status.
But on the other hand, illegal migration is a problem that is not just humanitarian – it is a huge humanitarian problem. It is also a security problem for the countries of the European Union, for Greece, and, naturally, for Turkey. In any case, we have excellent cooperation on issues concerning the combating of terrorism.
It is also obvious that we talked about the state of play in the talks in Cyprus; talks aimed at shaping a new framework for talks and negotiations that will respect the Resolutions of the UN Security Council, the High Level Agreements that are an acquis for Cyprus; the European community acquis, because the Republic of Cyprus is a member state of the European Union.
The opening of the talks and the negotiations in Cyprus is something that interests us and something that is linked to the initiatives of President Anastasiades, who, beyond everything else, has, I remind you, underscored the need for a new generation of confidence-building measures that will change the atmosphere and allow for the completion of the negotiations.
The pivotal point is that any agreement must be accepted by the Cypriot people in a referendum. This is the ultimate, essential criterion. Direct legitimization is needed from the Cypriot people through a referendum.
Consequently, we must bear in mind that everything that is discussed will be judged through a democratic process. And we are prepared to contribute to the formulation of a solution that can be accepted, as I said, by the Cypriot people, in a referendum.
We agreed to do everything we can so that the climate in our relations is maintained at a high level; creative, without misunderstandings. From this perspective, great importance is attached to the protection of cultural heritage and the protection of the Byzantine Christian monuments and Ottoman monuments. This is something that unites us as civilized countries, members of the UN and UNESCO.
During the luncheon, we will have the opportunity to discuss in greater detail the regional and international issues that we raised – but we will discuss them in a more systematic manner. We will refer in particular, that is, to the situation prevailing in Syria and in Iran, and in other countries of the region that interest us, because, in any case, one of the Greek Presidency’s priorities is the Southern Neighbourhood, just as the Lithuanian Presidency emphasized the Eastern Neighbourhood, culminating in the Vilnius Summit Meeting a few days ago.
With these words, I would once again like to welcome the presence of my dear friend Ahmet Davutoglu in Athens and bid him take the floor.
A. DAVUTOGLU: My dear friend, colleague Foreign Minister of the Hellenic Republic, I thank you very much for receiving me here in Athens. This morning we had the opportunity to talk with the Prime Minister. The talks held with Mr. Samaras were constructive. During 2013, I had the opportunity to welcome your predecessor, Mr. Avramopoulos, to Ankara, as well as you yourself in the summer. The relations and these visits indicate the importance the two sides attach to our relationship.
I believe that the very positive relations that have been developed have culminated in very important agreements. Agreements that were very few in number in previous years, until our relationship became closer, which allowed us, within the space of three or four years, to sign some 27 bilateral agreements. And this is indicative of the importance and the results of our making our relations closer.
Of course, today we emphasized the proceedings and the outlook for holding the next High Level Cooperation Council. Of course, I believe that these closer relations between us had very important results in both the economy and trade. Right now, we have a volume of trade close to $5 billion, but our target is $10 billion.
Greek investments in Turkey are close to $7 billion. Of course, we know that a large number of Turkish entrepreneurs have visited Greece, are continuing to visit and sign agreements of major economic content. The meetings that take place in a peaceful climate and in a spirit of friendship are very important for our relations.
This, of course, is our vision, which we are trying to realize at all costs. Cultural relations are of very great importance in this sense. On my last visit to Athens, I had the opportunity to visit Faliro and the persons who hail from Istanbul, Greek citizens residing in the area. This gave me great pleasure, because it was like taking a walk in a place that was very familiar to me.
During this visit, I will have the opportunity to visit the Association of Imvrians. And I hope that on your next visit, Mr. Minister, we will have the opportunity to visit the area the Karamanlides Greeks are from, Karaman, in Central Turkey. It will be a great pleasure and honor for me to accompany you on such a visit.
Of course, the issue of our minorities must be seen as an opportunity, a bridge that will link the two peoples, and, of course, we must consider and see the issue of the minorities from the point of view of the rights of citizens, of equality, of equal rights of citizens.
We, as Turkey and as Greece, know that there is an acceleration in the talks, with the prospect of the resolution of the Cyprus issue. And as guarantor powers we want to contribute as best we can to the current prospect for resolving the Cyprus issue.
Turkey and Greece have supported every kind of process that will lead to a peaceful solution on the Cyprus issue. We want peace in the wider region of the Middle East, which entails the peaceful resolution of the Cyprus issue.
We believe that peace in the region makes Turkey stronger in the wider space of the Middle East, and this strengthens our desire to ensure peace in the Eastern Mediterranean and in Cyprus. The building of a peaceful future for Cyprus is truly of very great importance. Following this visit, I will be visiting Cyprus.
In parallel with these very positive aspects of my visit, we had the opportunity to discuss my country’s relations with the European Union. Because, as everyone knows, Greece is assuming the Presidency of the Council of the EU, and I had the opportunity to state to my counterpart that we attach very great importance to the Greek Presidency. I believe that we have made great efforts for our European perspective, and I think that the signing of the Readmission Agreement will accelerate Turkey’s European perspective.
We believe and hope that the momentum that has been provided by the Greek side will continue during its Presidency. And I believe that Turkey will contribute significantly to European affairs. As such, I thank Mr. Venizelos very much for the priority he gives to our relations, to the relations between the two countries.
Naturally, Turkey is ready for any kind of collaboration in this direction, and we will continue to work together in the same positive manner.
So, as we come through a period of the strengthening of ties, of the bridges linking the two sides, we will try, within this framework, to resolve the thorny issues in our relations, the difficult issues in our relations. And I will be very pleased when you reciprocate this visit of mine, Mr. Minister.
Thank you very much.
K. KOUTRAS: There will be questions now. Two for the Greek media and two for the Turkish media. Your questions, please.
A. ATHANASOPOULOS (Athens daily “To Vima”): Thank you very much. I have a question for each of you. Mr. Davutoglu, I would like to ask you the extent – within the framework of the talks on the issuing of a Joint Communiqué on the Cyprus issue – to which you agree fully with the positions of the Turkish Cypriot leader, Dervis Eroglu, regarding the existence or not of a single and indivisible sovereignty of the Republic of Cyprus.
And for Mr. Venizelos: Mr. Minister, in a recent interview with the Turkish daily Sabah, you said that “the taking of the necessary steps in Cyprus is important for our common future,” meaning the common future of Greece and Turkey, and I would like to ask you whether you think these required steps are being taken.
Thank you very much.
A. DAVUTOGLU: Very few global frozen issues have been discussed in as much detail as the Cyprus issue. We have vast terminology regarding the Cyprus issue.
In 2004, with the Annan Plan, we had the opportunity to discuss everything: how the new state will be shaped, on what foundations the shaping of this state will rest. That is, we have a very significant acquis on the issue of the talks on the Cyprus issue, and I think that Turkey supported the resolution of the Cyprus issue very significantly and seriously at that time, and it will do the same now.
Naturally, there are non-papers on this issue, and there are differences that separate the two sides, but it is very important for us to identify our differences and use a common terminology with which we can talk towards the resolution of differences.
Regarding the issue of the Joint Communique, we, as Turkey, tried to believe – and I think that the Turkish Cypriot side was quite flexible in its stance on this issue – and I think that we will try to show the same stance; to show the same willingness that will lead us to the resolution.
It is very important for Cyprus to continue as one state, to continue its existence. I think that this is very important within the international frameworks, in the international status quo, and this is of importance in the text of the Joint Communique.
We have to begin the direct talks. We have lost a lot of valuable time since 2004. Some ten years have passed, and it is five years now that the negotiations have been going on between the two sides in Cyprus. There was a break of one year, and the election of President Anastasiades pleased us greatly, because it was a very positive, a very good sign that such a person was elected: someone who supported the Annan Plan.
Of course, we were asked to accept a pause on the Cyprus issue, due to the economic crisis that hit Cyprus, but we also want to see this will, will from the Cypriot side, that they want the talks that will lead to the resolution of the issue.
We, as Greece and Turkey, are on a course of constructive talks, and we want to see this from all the sides. We don’t need to lose more time. Losing time on this issue is not beneficial. I think it’s time we continued.
E. VENIZELOS: The Greek position on the Cyprus issue is well known and has been set out many times. My dear friend Ahmet Davutoglu knows it as well.
Greece supports President Anastasiades’ initiatives. These initiatives include the proposals for Confidence-Building Measures of a new kind; Confidence-Building Measures that are more courageous, that are more radical, that can drastically change the climate on the island.
They also include the need for an agreement on a Joint Communique that is not informational or formal in nature, but that constitutes the framework for the negotiations. In any case, the major issues, the critical issues must be raised, discussed and agreed upon. It is better for this to happen at the outset, so that there can be a secure framework and speed in the process of the talks.
According to the Resolutions of the UN Security Council and the European community acquis, the solution of the Cyprus issue must lead to a solution that is bicommunal, a solution that is bizonal, a solution that is institutionally functional and compatible with the rules of the functioning of the European Union.
We need a solution that respects the fact that the Republic of Cyprus is a member. state of the UN and a member state of the European Union and the Eurozone. So we need a solution based on a single international legal personality, a single sovereignty and a single citizenship. These are the fundamental components, the institutional components of a solution.
We want to believe that, in the end, good faith will be shown by the other side as well, so that the Communique can be agreed upon and the negotiations can start.
The Cypriot government, President Anastasiades, has addressed Prime Minister Samaras in a special letter, and has asked, in order to facilitate the process – following the Communique and the opening of the negotiations – that Greece, on the level of Foreign Ministry Secretary General, hold a meeting with the Turkish Cypriot community’s negotiator, with the Turkish government, on precisely the same level, meeting with the negotiator for the Greek Cypriot community.
The Prime Minister and I decided to accept President Anastasiades’ proposal, precisely to facilitate the process and to show our good and creative stance.
I clarify something that is self-evident: that the two negotiators represent the two communities, the Greek Cypriot and the Turkish Cypriot communities, as these communities are provided for by the 1960 Constitution that up until now governs the existence and functioning of the Republic of Cyprus.
They do not represent other entities, and, naturally, Greece in no case recognizes the so-called “Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus”. This is clear. Moreover, the two leaders have been meeting for years now, and these meetings produce no other legal result beyond that for which they take place, which concerns the negotiations.
And I repeat that what is being sought is a solution that can be accepted through a referendum. The Annan Plan has left a positive legacy, which is the acceptance of the process of the referendum. So we need solutions that are democratic, solutions that are based on consensus, solutions that will be put to the judgment of the Cypriot people, who will decide.
I am pleased because our positions are set out frankly, are mutually understood, and we would like to hope that there will be an agreement on the Communique as a initial show of good will, so that we can go into the substantial part of these negotiations.
P. BERIRE (“Anadolu” Turkish news agency): Mr. Minister, on 16 December the signing will take place of the Readmission Agreement and, subsequently, after three-and-half years, Turkish citizens will be able to visit Greece without a visa. Right now, a great increase is being seen in the number of Turkish citizens visiting Greece. How will this process continue? And what are the Greek Presidency’s plans with regard to Turkey?
E. VENIZELOS: We see the signing of the Readmission Agreement between the European Union and Turkey as being very important. The Readmission Agreement interests us because it is part of the framework of a comprehensive management of migration flows, but it also interests us because it paves the way for liberalization of the visa regime.
Our cooperation in the tourism sector is good, increasing. But it holds huge potential for a large unified tourism market, not just for exchanges of visits between the citizens of the two countries, but for attracting tourists from other regions of the world who are captivated by the Mediterranean, by the climate, by the cultural heritage, and they can very significantly boost the Greek and Turkish economies.
We are monitoring the increase in the visits of Turkish citizens to Greece, as well as of Greek citizens to Turkey, and we want to bolster this. On our islands, with regard to the adjacent Turkish coast, a pilot programme has been implemented with success. This pilot programme shows us that there is vast room for growth, and we are truly pleased because we will make it easier for people who want to visit our countries.
A. DAVUTOGLU: There was another question on your Presidency. What is your policy during your Presidency regarding Turkish integration?
E. VENIZELOS: Mr. Davutoglu reminded me that there was a second part to the question. The Greek Presidency of the Council of the European Union will continue all the processes that exist with regard to enlargement. Turkey is a very old candidate for accession to the European Union. We have already discussed joint initiatives that we can undertake in the Western Balkans, in the Eastern Mediterranean, and in the countries of the Middle East and Arab world during the six months of the Greek Presidency, as well as during the six months of the Italian Presidency. Because the two Presidencies – the Greek and Italian Presidencies – make up a Mediterranean Year in the European Union.
Already, after 3.5 years of inactivity, the discussions have started regarding a very important chapter, which is Regional Policy; a chapter that interests us both, and we hope that the negotiations on this chapter can be completed during the Greek Presidency.
There are other chapters, as well, that can be opened. There are chapters that concern the hard core of European integration, like economic and monetary policy. There are chapters that concern social policy and social Europe, which interest us very much.
Naturally, there are other chapters that are very important, which concern democracy and rule of law. On these chapters, we would be greatly facilitated by a change in the atmosphere regarding the Cyprus issue – an agreement on the Joint Communique, the official opening of the negotiations.
In any case, there is no chance of our not having work to do with regard to the relations of the European Union and Turkey. This has to do with the field of
Common Security and Defence Policy, it has to do with NATO and EU-NATO relations.
We are very interested in this relationship between the European Union and NATO being comprehensive – that is, including all of the 28 member states of the European Union. This is very important due to the participation of the Republic of Cyprus in these processes.
P. GALIATSATOS (Athens daily “Kathimerini”): My question is for Minister Davutoglu, and I want to ask you this: You talked about our cultural relations, and recently we have been reading and hearing statements from officials of your government who want to convert Hagia Sophia into a mosque. One question is whether you really want to do such a thing. The main question is that when there is protest from the Greek side on these issues, you respond by pointing out that Athens does not have a mosque. Moreover, on the Halki issue, you tell us to build a mosque in Athens first. But the issue here is that these are not bilateral issues, they are human rights issues. Why do you constantly insist on expanding the agenda of our bilateral issues to such issues?
A. DAVUTOGLU: First of all, let me say this: We attach both priority and importance to the rights of our citizens, and, of course, this is in the sense of equality before the law.
Of course, there is the issue of the foundations and various other issues, and, as you know, the Turkish side has taken actions that indicate the Turkish government’s good will, like the return of the property of the foundations, which approach the value of 1.4 million Turkish liras. I think this is also obvious in our relations with the Patriarchate and in the Patriarchate’s demands to the government.
We implement international law and whatever is in effect internationally on these issues. Turkey is a state where there is separation of state and religion, and in this sense we implement the international law that concerns these issues.
If in some of our responses we refer to issues concerning the rights of Muslim citizens of Greece, concerning the right to free and direct election of religious representatives, Muftis, it is because I believe that it is a universal human value, like the choice of the Patriarch directly by the citizens.
And if there are certain matters in these bilateral issues, I must say that we overcame the issues of reciprocity on these issues and implemented the principles of international law. For example, the Greek Consulate General in Istanbul is housed in a building that was returned to the Greek side – The Sismanoglio building. The same holds true for the Monastery of Saint George in Prinkipo.
I believe that the traditions originating from the Byzantine and Ottoman empires are a common heritage for the Turkish state. Both Byzantine culture and Ottoman culture constitute our common heritage.
I believe that our viewing these issues in such a manner is also proven by our stance on issues that concern cultural heritage. I think that our stance on these issues is very open, very clear, and has been recognized internationally as respecting the international principles that govern these issues.
I would like to add another issue. There is the Alatza Imaret mosque in Thessaloniki, at which, as you know, an exhibition opened that showed projected film content that did not befit a religious institution. And this practice on the part of the Greek side irritated the Turkish side, the Turkish people, a great deal.
But this stopped, fortunately. However, when we have instances of irritation with this issue, we have the opportunity to talk. Religious monuments really should not be used in a manner that is not befitting the nature of the monument, and we attach great importance to this issue.
And of course we attach very great importance to the protection of this common cultural heritage that I referred to before. The renovation of Hagia Sophia in the 16th century by Mimar Sinan and the respect for the building point up this stance of ours historically.
Thank you very much.
E. VENIZELOS: I will make a comment as well, because the discussion expanded, due to the question on the monuments. The protection of monuments of cultural heritage, and particularly monuments that, due to their importance, are global cultural heritage monuments, is an obligation of all the member states of the UN and UNESCO.
We are obliged to respect the principles of UNESCO regarding the protection of Byzantine Christian monuments and the protection of Ottoman monuments.
I informed my dear friend Ahmet Davutoglu that I am in a position to provide him with a dossier that details all the restorations that have been carried out for the protection of many Ottoman monuments in Greece, and it is obvious that Hagia Sophia is a protected world heritage monument, not on a national or bilateral level, but on a level that is truly universal and global.
Moreover, it is obvious that we need to be very careful in the use of monuments. It is truly unthinkable that important monuments be used as cinemas for films of special content. That is truly unacceptable.
But there are other phenomena of unacceptable use of monuments, and we are making a very great effort, through good-faith dialogue, to harmonize with the principles of UNESCO and with the rules for the protection of monuments of global cultural heritage.
With regard to the protection of human rights, the principle of reciprocity obviously does not apply. Greece and Turkey are member states not only of the UN, but also of the Council of Europe. We are parties to the European Convention on Human Rights, and we accept the authority of the decisions of the European Court of Human Rights.
The Ecumenical Patriarchate is not a domestic Turkish institution. It is an international institution. The ecumenical notion of Christianity does hold without the Ecumenical Patriarchate. It doesn’t delineate just the Eastern Christian Church, nor the Western, because the Western Church is also defined with reference to the Eastern, and vice versa.
Moreover, it is very useful for us to note that in Greece, for the Muslim minority of Thrace, the sharia, the religious law of Islam, is implemented. And we had the opportunity to talk with Mr. Davutoglu about the problems related to the implementation of the sharia and with the double role of the Mufti, not just as a religious functionary, but as a judge who hands down rulings within the framework of Greek law and order.
We had the opportunity to go into depth on these issues. This dialogue is taking place in good faith and is always governed by the rules of international law, with the aim of the defence of human rights.
G. KIRBAKIS: Mr. Minister, first I would like to ask, regarding the mosque in Votaniko and the renovation of the mosque in the center of Athens, at what stage are we right now? The building of a mosque in the Votaniko area and the restoration of the Fethiye Mosque in Plaka? What information do you have, and what can you share with us?
E. VENIZELOS: I think it is very important that, following a delay, there was a very serious technical tender from the largest Greek construction companies for the construction of the Athens mosque, which is a mosque that will be built with public funding as an institution protected by the Hellenic Republic.
The size of the contractors ensures the speedy and reliable completion of the project. Thus, Athens is acquiring a mosque for all Muslims who want to perform their religious duties with dignity if they reside in Athens or are in Athens. And we are very, very pleased when our citizens who visit Turkey and other countries find Orthodox churches open in the center of cities, where they can perform their religious duties.
Fethiye Mosque is a very important Ottoman monument. It is in the center of Athens, and we are pleased that the tender competition has been completed for choosing the contractor that will restore this monument. Just as we have restored many other Ottoman monuments.
A. DAVUTOGLU: Both Prime Minister Samaras and Foreign Minister Venizelos briefed us on the very specific steps that have been taken on these issues. As a person who has studied the history of philosophy, with special emphasis on Greek philosophy, I must say that I am an admirer of the Hellenic spirit. And walking through the streets of Athens really does bring to my mind images from your profound cultural heritage.
I think it is a very important city, a multifaceted city with a very important past. What I want to say is that cities that are multifaceted as to their cultural past have open mosques, functioning synagogues, and all types of places of worship that are open to all citizens. And this is an indication of the multiculturalism of these cities.
The fact that there are architectural monuments that are representative examples of multiculturalism is something that honors us. At least that’s how we feel about this issue. And of course it is also very important for visitors to see the multiculturalism manifested tangibly when the visit a city.
I looked for the Fethiye Mosque, which I saw in a poor condition, which caused me to feel dismay. In contrast with the wonder I feel when I see the Acropolis, the sight of the Fethiye Mosque dismayed me. I think it befits Athens to point up its historically multicultural dimensions.
I think that the Greek government has decided and is contributing very significantly to the shaping of this climate, and within this framework, real efforts are being made toward the restoration of such monuments. I think this is the responsibility of every government, as each government has a duty to protect monuments of value to all humanity.
December 13, 2013