JOURNALIST: Mr. Minister, thank you for hosting us at the Foreign Ministry. Though you’ve just taken up your duties, I would say that you dived into the deep end at a critical meeting of the EU, of the Foreign Ministers. A meeting that, I would say, Greece made its mark on.
N. KOTZIAS: As I was entering the Council, where hundreds of reporters were waiting, you should have heard their exclamations when I told them that Greece is interested in the stabilization and peace of Ukraine, but also in there not being a rift between the EU and Russia. It was a very difficult task, because we had to find a way not to come into conflict – in an absurd manner, I would say – and disrupt our relationship in an external economic sector with the Europeans, while at the same time not disrupting the relations of Europe, and the relations of Greece, with Russia.
In this context there was a very tough negotiation, which had started four days earlier. You will know that many lies were told at our expense – in the Greek media, networks, but also in major newspapers abroad, within the framework of the pressure that is exerted, as is natural, by the other side, which has more means, ahead of the meeting. It’s like what happens in Formula 1, the cars that compete for pole position on Saturday; that is, their starting position the next day, and the race is on Sunday. The pressures outside negotiations are the same. Unfortunately, I must say, there are Greek news media that adopt the arguments of the foreign side, to exert even more pressure on us. They don’t realize it, they don’t do it on purpose, but they don’t help.
JOURNALIST: What was the climate in your first meeting with the other partners?
N. KOTZIAS: The partners who don’t want major rifts with Russia looked very kindly on us, and some of them hid behind us during the negotiations. The others, who were diametrically against any kind of talks or relations with Russia, kept a critical distance. What is interesting is that there was a tough negotiation. I think we did well. There was also the coincidence of Steinmeier, the Foreign Ministry of Germany, being well disposed, because we were students together and lived on the same street, even if we hadn’t met then, when I was studying in what was then West Germany.
Steinmeier laughed at the reports in the various Greek newspapers that I had studied in East Germany, in other countries, etc. I must say that the EU’s High Representative, Ms. Mogherini, helped a great deal, perceived the problem and understood that the unity of the EU cannot be achieved constantly through hostility. My arguments were mainly political and geopolitical. I explained that, in the opinion of Greece, which considers itself Europeanist, Europe does not begin and end with, not to say even include, sanctions. I reminded them of all the visions of the creation of the EU, the treaties, the draft Constitution and all of the decisions. The stance held by certain countries that Europeanist equals agreement with the sanctions, or that sanctions are the Europeanist itself – we see this in Greece as well – essentially limits the whole European ideal to a negative measure. It is an anti-European stance and argument par excellence.
And the second argument was that our partners should bear very carefully in mind that Greece is in the middle of a triangle of destabilization – Ukraine-Libya-Middle East – and our country is the only stable point that is emitting some waves of stability and that, if destabilized through the manner in which they deal with us, this destabilization will cross the Russian-Ukrainian border, will reach the Middle East, and will pass into North Africa; that is, it is a kind of scythe that will create tens of millions of refugees, jihadists, diseases, all kinds of risks. At long last, the EU must think long-term about what it wants to do with Russia, how to stabilize the region rather than reacting in a manner that is morally direct, correct, but fragmented. We stated our solidarity with the societies of Ukraine.
JOURNALIST: In the end, did Moscow and Kiev call on you, call on Greece, to play a mediating role in the conflict?
N. KOTZIAS: We stated that we have a Greek minority in Ukraine, and, in fact, we introduced into the final decision a special statement on the protection of the ethnic minorities, which is a proposal on which we will depend in order to protect the Greeks of Ukraine. What became apparent – because I was invited to visit Kiev, and I also have an invitation from Mr. Lavrov, the Russian Foreign Minister – is that Greece must not become part of the problem, nor should it sever its historical relations with Russia, but can play a special role in mediating and developing the negotiations between these two states that are both, for us, friends of Europe.
I must note that the most basic objection we made until the end, and of which we convinced the majority, was that Europe should not move ahead to a third wave of sanctions against Russia. That is, the so-called sectoral sanctions, which means the destruction of sectors of the Russian economy. It was accepted after a long debate, adopted by certain states. In the negotiations there was an interim proposal from the French and the Germans, who justified their interim proposal on the grounds of “coming closer to Greece.” The presidency, however, made an even better proposal, which adopted all of the deletions we had asked for in the draft, and that’s when the objections were voiced by the states of northeastern Europe, the Baltic republics, Poland, Scandinavian countries and Britain. There was a substantial political debate. The Poles, the Baltic countries and the Scandinavians withdrew their insistence, and the only country left was the United Kingdom, which, in an unusual debate for such a Council, withdrew its veto in the end.
JOURNALIST: Why did these countries veto?
N. KOTZIAS: In order not to adopt the Greek proposals. I think that, thanks to the policy and tactics we followed, on the instructions of Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras, we were able – instead of being forced to use our veto – to pass our fundamental line: “We don’t want further sanctions against Russia.” Of course, the previous sanctions agreed on in the past will continue, but not this major wave of sanctions, and in this way we maintained European unity; Europe didn’t split over this issue, and there was also no rift against Russia.
That is why we had the invitation from my colleague Mr. Lavrov to visit Moscow. That is why we had a discussion with him. That is also why there will be a telephone conversation between Mr. Putin and Prime Minister Tsipras. I must say that I had a conversation with U.S. Secretary of State Kerry, who listened with great interest to the Greek government’s position, which I also stated in the Council, that we are not willing to undermine the democratic rights of any society or of any side. We want to mediate, but we don’t want to open up new fronts. We had a very pleasant conversation, and we will meet soon.
I left Europe with dozens of invitations from Foreign Ministers – and some will come here – and with hundreds of requests for interviews, which – you are the only exception – I cannot accept, because we are in a phase of multiple negotiations. We have the Council of Foreign Ministers again on 9 February. On 12 February, the European Council. I made an exception because you are a public news agency and because I am of the opinion that the Foreign Minister shouldn’t talk too much and, in particular, should not talk constantly because the media ask him to. I understand why they request it, they honor me, but when you talk a lot, you also reveal the tactics you will employ in the coming negotiations, and I have to be careful.
JOURNALIST: Mr. Minister, is this positive outcome for our foreign policy a positive omen regarding the basic subject of the negotiations that are coming on the economic issues?
N. KOTZIAS: I think that the experience I gained over the past five days, from the first draft decision to the negotiations themselves, is that the EU is obliged to carry out negotiations. You cannot issue orders if you do not want to be ordered about yourself. That is the main thing I understood, and I think that, as we won this negotiation, we might lose another in the future, but we restored the country’s sovereignty and the notion of the equality of each member state within the EU. At the last European Council, my colleagues realized that they cannot treat Greece like a pariah state because it owes money. Owing money is one thing, and relinquishing or not utilizing the rights one has in the EU is another.
From what I can see, the negotiation – there were thousands of emails; it was the first time we received so many at the Foreign Ministry – gave a sense of dignity to the Greek people, a sense of trust, and a breeze of optimism. But take note: The country’s exiting the crisis is not just a matter of financial markets. It is a matter of people feeling good, of Greeks feeling that they can contribute, of the citizen having his rights and being able to dream for the future. I hope history shows that this meeting of the Council of Foreign Ministers was a step in this process.
February 1, 2015