T. HATZIS: So, let’s join the Greek Minister of Foreign Affairs. Good morning, Minister.
N. DENDIAS: Good morning Mr Hatzis, and good morning to your viewers. I apologise for not being there since I am away, but I imagine we can speak just as well like this.
T. HATZIS: That’s OK. The first question, of course, concerns the Middle East. We have seen what Turkey is doing; Mr Pompeo, whom you met with a few days ago, has said, “we did not give them the green light to do this”. We have controversial, contradictory messages coming from Mr Trump, and the region right now is in a state of war. We would like to hear your analysis, where is this situation going to lead to and why is it happening? Do the Americans want this or not, Mr Dendias?
N. DENDIAS: Mr Hatzis, I cannot predict or guess what the Americans want, I do know what Mr Pompeo told us when he was in Athens, we are aware of the positions of the US administration and the stance taken by the legislative bodies of the US.
First of all, it is obvious in our opinion that Turkey is once more acting like a troublemaker in the region and, if you’d like my personal view, and I’ve mentioned this before openly and honestly, this is also bad for Turkey. Turkey is embarking on a new exploit, involving military forces, and stirring up issues in an effort to create a zone to which refugees will be transferred from its territory.
This is not legal, there are specific conditions according to which you can transfer people. It must be done in a dignified manner, voluntarily and to the areas that they come from.
T. HATZIS: No, excuse me, but Turkey is obviously doing this and wants to move them to that strip east of the Euphrates in order to distort –not to say that it wants to cause a Kurdish genocide, it’s not my job to do so- the population profile.
N. DENDIAS: Right. But that is not legal, Mr Hatzis. International law and Refugee law have very specific rules. Once more, Turkey is getting involved in a new adventure. But it will not gain anything from this. That’s obvious, in my opinion. Still, it is creating a full disruption.
There has been universal condemnation, not only on our side, or within the framework of the trilateral mechanism – the condemnation has been universal. It’s worth reading the statement of the German Ministry of Foreign Affairs; and beyond that, something much worse for Turkey is the fact that the US legislative Bodies have already initiated procedures to impose sanctions – very specific and very strict sanctions. This is the reading of the situation today.
T. HATZIS: The question is this: you say that Turkey is being condemned, but Turkey also went through this during a different period, Minister, when it invaded and occupied Cyprus. And to this day, Turkey is still there, it has not moved, it has its own interests and stands defiant. Whether the UN says so, or the international treaties you mentioned earlier, or anyone else. That is one question.
The second question is whether the current situation is an opportunity, for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and you personally, to create the right conditions for a dialogue with Turkey, which has left this front open, in order to resolve the issues we are facing in the Mediterranean and the Aegean.
N. DENDIAS: Let me start with the second. It is obvious that the overall attitude of Turkey, both in the framework of the Cypriot EEZ and as regards its general conduct, or if you wish, the modus operandi it has adopted, does not encourage any potential Greek interest in an accord.
We, and the Republic of Cyprus, are always willing to come to an understanding with Turkey and resolve problems. However, you chose an example, a real example, an example that hurts us deeply, Greek hearts feel pain because of the occupation of Cyprus.
However, Mr Hatzis, let us be honest: has Turkey actually won? In the case of Cyprus, Turkey has been trying for half a century to legalise this situation with no success, and has created an isolated pariah of the international community in the northern occupied part of Cyprus, so has it really won? And what has this exploit cost the country? What is the financial cost, the cost for its society? How has this helped the Turkish Cypriots? Look at the GDP of the Republic of Cyprus compared to the occupied territories.
T. HATZIS: Just a minute, let me speak for the other party. You say Turkey has won nothing, and I say that the Turks claim they are patient. Since 1973 they had already put forward the issue of the joint exploitation of the Aegean, and you know this very well, and they are still insisting on this now and think they will manage it at some point. That’s the way they are operating in Cyprus. I believe, they’re thinking, “at some point, we’ll manage to do what we want”.
Why? Because the international community, at some point in history, will allow them to do so. That’s how things are done with Turkey, they have a steady …
N. DENDIAS: But do you know what has been done so far? Excuse me, let me tell you this …
T. HATZIS: No, I’m playing the devil’s advocate.
N. DENDIAS: That’s fine because we need to answer this question. You are actually expressing a thought that exists in society, I accept that and I agree with it. A part of Greek society, totally wrongfully in my opinion, but this is a good opportunity, says that Turkey gets things done, it persists, it has a successful foreign policy. What has Turkey achieved in the last half century regarding its foreign policy Mr Hatzis?
On the contrary, let me remind you of what Greece has achieved. The Republic of Cyprus is at this moment a full member of the European Union, and almost looks down on Turkey from a superior position. If Turkey wants to have a serious relationship with the European Union, then this must be approved by the Republic of Cyprus, and that is a triumph for Greek foreign policy.
Turkey, which proclaimed through Mr Davutoglu that it had zero problems along its borders, has managed to have problems with all its neighbours. There is not an inch of Turkish territory that is not problematic. Take Syria, take Iraq, take Russia, take Georgia, take Greece, take Cyprus, take Bulgaria, Turkey has issues to resolve with them all. That is not the way to practise your foreign policy. If everyone looks sideways at you, that can only mean trouble.
T. HATZIS: Just a minute, that’s the part we wanted to discuss with you and you have given us your answers.
Now let’s talk about something else, the agreement you signed with Mr Pompeo, which is linked to all of this. It seems that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs considers this to be an extremely good agreement, even worth celebrating, in the sense that it fortifies our country against Turkey’s threats, since the Americans will be taking various initiatives.
First of all, can you tell us what initiatives the Americans will be taking in this area and what they will do. Because we need to know. One of the things you said was that “they will not have separate army bases, they will be stationed at Greek bases with a Greek commander”; that is the issue. But I tend to have my doubts about this, about whether the Americans will agree.
N. DENDIAS: Your doubts concern the Greek commander? Yes, there will be a Greek commander.
T. HATZIS: Will it be easy for the Americans to accept this?
N. DENDIAS: Allow me to dispel your doubts.
T. HATZIS: You may dispel my doubts, but do so convincingly, through documents. Otherwise there’s no point. Words don’t count.
N. DENDIAS: I’ll send you the relevant document.
T. HATZIS: Fine. What does our country have to gain from this agreement with the Americans that you celebrated and consider to be of the utmost importance?
N. DENDIAS: First of all, we are not the only ones that consider it to be of the utmost importance.
T. HATZIS: I’m asking about you.
N. DENDIAS: I believe the Americans also consider it to be of the utmost importance.
T. HATZIS: And you kept something from me earlier, since we’re talking about Pompeo, you kept from me what Pompeo said about the region: Syria, Turkey and the rest. You didn’t tell me. I quote “he told us…”.
N. DENDIAS: I did not keep it from you – I did not tell you. That’s different.
T. HATZIS: But you did keep it from us.
N. DENDIAS: It’s different to say I “kept it” from you.
T. HATZIS: Whatever. By the way, tell us about that.
N. DENDIAS: Not everything can be said.
T. HATZIS: OK, but he told you something. Shouldn’t the Greek people know what?
N. DENDIAS: Shall we deal with first things first? Because you are putting various matters on the table…
T. HATZIS: I am, because there are various issues. I haven’t put them on the table, they’ve put themselves on the table.
N. DENDIAS: OK, let’s take things in order. Firstly, the defence agreement. The Defence Agreement first of all consolidates the existence of another four American facilities on Greek soil, within a specific legal framework, that will not be run like Souda, but will be run inside a Greek base with a Greek commander, and the operations that have initially been specified in this agreement: what types of operations can be carried out, if the American operations go beyond this framework there will be a special Committee that will provide authorisation, or, if this is not the case, then the matter will reach the competent Ministers. Why do I say this? Because ….
T. HATZIS: Fine, just a minute Minister.
N. DENDIAS: May I finish? Because if I am constantly interrupted then we’ll never get anywhere.
T. HATZIS: We need to break for commercials. Please allow me to do so, otherwise I’m sure you realise I’ll be in trouble with the management.
N. DENDIAS: Yes, that is indeed a major issue, not having revenue, I fully understand.
T. HATZIS: A break for commercials and then back with Mr Dendias.
[BREAK]
T. HATZIS: So, let us now return to Mr Dendias. You were telling us about the subject of the agreement and how good it is.
N. DENDIAS: I was telling you about the American bases. First of all, the American bases bring advanced technology and know-how to our country, which is absolutely essential for us if we are to obtain similar weapons systems in future. What I mean is that even if the Americans were to give them to us for free today, we could not afford to build the facilities required to support them. According to this agreement, the Americans will build these facilities, so that firstly we can familiarise ourselves with these systems, our Armed Forces that is, and secondly, so that we can acquire them in the future. Last but not least is the question of Alexandroupolis. There is an American presence in Alexandroupolis for the first time. We consider this to be extremely important and I would be insulting your intelligence and that of the Greek people, if I were to further explain the significance of the Americans being present in Alexandroupolis. I think we all understand the reason.
T. HATZIS: You do not insult our intelligence in any way, we would like to know.
N. DENDIAS: I think you already do. I am simply saying that the agreement is not aimed against any third country. It addresses Greek interests, and those of the US on a secondary level and, primarily, it promotes stability in the region. Therefore, it also promotes European and international interests. And that is our goal.
We haven’t started an argument with anyone. Greece is a European country of the Balkans, it is not a Balkan brawler or a Balkan troublemaker, it does not play hardball, it looks out for its own interests, the interests of the region and the stability of the area, and I believe that we can also set an example for other countries, such as Turkey, with regard to how a country starts off within a Balkan environment and evolves into a country that belongs to the European core. This is the example that Greek foreign policy provides to its neighbours.
T. HATZIS: The goal you have set, Mr Dendias, is for Greece to play a major role in the Mediterranean and also in the western Balkans.
N. DENDIAS: That’s right.
T. HATZIS: Do you believe that this goal can be achieved through this agreement? I mean, will the Americans be the guarantors for Greece to play a more… I won’t use the term interventionist, but a more dynamic role in the region?
N. DENDIAS: Mr Pompeo, and thank you for asking Mr Hatzis, through his presence here… Mr Pompeo came for three days. The last time an American Secretary of State visited Greece was in 2015, and then Mr Kerry came for three hours.
His visit here and his signature signified the approval of the United States, in the sense of its support, not its permission –just to be clear- for the steps being taken by the government of Mr Mitsotakis. The Mitsotakis Government has first of all defined as its goal the recovery of Greece on all levels. We want to have a say in Syria and its future, we want to have a say in Libya and the situation there, we have the trilateral cooperation schemes, as you very rightly mentioned earlier …
T. HATZIS: Yes, that is indeed important.
N. DENDIAS: With both Israel and Egypt – and with Armenia in the Caucasus. On the other hand, Greece has a say and a role to play in the Western Balkans concerning the prospect of their accession to Europe. Greece has already managed to get Cyprus into the European Union; now, mainly due to our efforts and thanks to the people of these countries, the Bulgarians and Romanians are also members of the European Union. Greece is pulling the Balkans towards Europe.
T. HATZIS: Minister, do you admit what is voiced by the Opposition, that they also largely helped Greek-American relations and paved the way to some extent?
N. DENDIAS: Thank you for asking this question. This is a major truth that I am always ready to voice: if SYRIZA offered its services to the nation on one single issue, it is the fact that it accepted, in the most resounding manner, the choice made by Konstantinos Karamanlis regarding Greece and where it belongs.
When Konstantinos Karamanlis said “we belong to the West”, he was referring not only to NATO or to our alliance with the United States, he was also referring to Europe and to all ideas linked to the Enlightenment, the protection of human rights, democracy and citizen rights. It is true that SYRIZA, through its foreign policy in relation to ΝΑΤΟ, the United States and the European Union, with regard to what it said beforehand, just to be clear, although it’s not important now, did endorse what New Democracy had proclaimed as its founding principle, through Konstantinos Karamanlis. They did the nation a service and I admit this on every occasion.
T. HATZIS: Good. Now let us talk about the criticism by the President of the Opposition, Mr Tsipras, who said that Greece is keeping silent about the Middle East, it is saying nothing, it is not expressing any political discourse regarding an intervention or a ceasefire in the region.
N. DENDIAS: OK. First of all, of course, I understand that when a party is in the opposition and has recently lost the elections by such a large margin, then it feels it must say something.
T. HATZIS: Well, that’s not the main issue, but the criticism is. Please answer to this criticism, and not in this way.
N. DENDIAS: Right away. It would suffice for one to read the joint memorandum of the trilateral in order to understand in the most evident manner that Greece not only does not accept the Turkish invasion/intervention of Syria, but is also taking measures so that this invasion/intervention is condemned and its inadmissible nature underlined on a broader scale. Greece is present in this situation, as it should be. I understand the criticism from the opposition, and I said from the start that I will respect and listen to the opposition. Before signing the agreement with Mr Mitsotakis, I invited all Parties and spoke to everyone.
T. HATZIS: Now, there are two more issues. I will ask you about the one, but Leda will also take over because she has other things to ask you about. One has to do with Prespes. You had stated prior to the elections, and I also asked Mr Georgiadis yesterday who frowned at my question you said that “no more refugees would come here, we have a different policy, the previous government made a mess of it…” this is not a crisis. We must live with this problem, because the crisis will end at some point. But from what I understand, we must learn to live with this situation, there’s no way around it. And I ask you directly: what you talked about prior to the elections, why aren’t you doing all that now?
N. DENDIAS: You’re talking about Prespes.
T. HATZIS: Yes. What you said about Prespes, why aren’t you doing it now?
N. DENDIAS: I’ll tell you.
T. HATZIS: And Leda has specific questions on migration, since this is a topic we talk about daily. So, you said that the agreement was a betrayal. And now you yourself come out and say that it is an agreement I must uphold and an agreement we will go along with. And now the opposition is saying: Are they joking? They called the agreement a betrayal, when they were in the opposition they based their opposition discourse, structured it precisely around this issue. And now you boast about the agreement, says the opposition, not me. I am just telling you what they say.
N. DENDIAS: We’re not boasting about it, Mr Hatzis…
T. HATZIS: If you say that this is a good agreement, then what are you doing?
N. DENDIAS: We never said so, on the contrary I believe we maintained an honourable stance.
T. HATZIS: What do you mean, on the contrary? You just said so yesterday.
N. DENDIAS: What did Mitsotakis say: He said before the elections that “I would not have signed this agreement, it has specific faults. I think the Greek people know what they are. However, if it is ratified, and the Greek parliament votes in favour of the agreement, then there is nothing I can do about it, I will have to implement it”. He said it prior to the elections very clearly, he said it repeatedly and that’s what we are doing. We are fighting for its implementation and interpretation. That is our battle now.
T. HATZIS: Wait a minute, you can’t get away with that.
N. DENDIAS: I don’t want to. Go ahead, I’m at your disposal.
T. HATZIS: Since you have the majority in Parliament and you say that it went ahead in the Greek Parliament, now you have the majority in Parliament why don’t you bring this agreement back for renegotiation? Does the Parliament accept a renegotiation of the points of the agreement with which you disagree? Or not and so you’ve put the agreement in a drawer and what’s done is done, and that’s fine with you?
N. DENDIAS: I’m glad you ask, because this issue needs to be clarified indeed and is extremely grave. An agreement cannot be revised only when one of the two parties wishes to do so. There are two parties involved in this case, the Hellenic Republic and North Macedonia. If Greece even thinks of starting to revise treaties, we all know where that will lead us. Greece is a country that implements International Law, it proceeds in accordance with it and views International Law as a major asset. So you think that Greece itself, which advocates for this through its foreign policy and has used it to achieve a long series of goals, will actually come and undermine the foundations of its broader policy? That would be a moral crime.
T. HATZIS: What about the points, Minister, that you voiced your objections against…
N. DENDIAS: We still have objections. The fact that the Treaty includes a provision about the Macedonian language, do you see any of us happy about that? Did anyone say, “great, we would have done it that way too”?
T. HATZIS: Then why are you celebrating its implementation and shouting about it every day?
N. DENDIAS: We are not celebrating.
T. HATZIS: Not you, some of your high-ranking members, not you yourself.
N. DENDIAS: We want to oblige North Macedonia to faithfully adhere to what has been agreed, as we are doing. And we are fighting the battle for the interpretation of the agreement within the framework of the European course taken by North Macedonia, which we aspire towards.
T. HATZIS: What you’re saying doesn’t add up. It doesn’t add up because there is the language and other issues regarding irredentism, there are issues of this kind.
N. DENDIAS: We will deal with irredentism. As regards language and citizenship, we have ways of getting this to the point we want. This is the truth, what can we do? Otherwise, if we had been happy with it, we would have signed it too.
T. HATZIS: No, OK, so the Greek people expected you to take certain initiatives regarding these issues, to settle them in some way, modify them at least. That is what the people were expecting, that’s what they understood prior to the elections.
N. DENDIAS: No.
T. HATZIS: What do you mean no. If I let you listen to videos with some of your high-ranking members, you’ll see what I mean.
N. DENDIAS: The Greek people expected from us what Mitsotakis told them prior to the elections…
T. HATZIS: Mitsotakis is not the New Democracy party, there are also the high-ranking members who were outraged.
N. DENDIAS: However, I believe that the leader of the New Democracy party is called Kyriakos Mitsotakis. He is the leader of the New Democracy party, and said clearly before the elections, “if the agreement is ratified, I will implement it”. He said that prior to the elections, so that no one could say a word to him today. This is what the country is doing, may I add, while also fighting the battle of its interpretation. And Greek society finally needs to reach a consensus on this now, this is a national effort.
T. HATZIS: OK, we understand that, but there are other issues as well. We fight a battle every day for the issue of migration and will fight it to the end. That may bother you as a government, it may bother you…
N. DENDIAS: It bothers us? Why should it bother us?
T. HATZIS: Things are an absolute mess.
N. DENDIAS: An absolute mess?
T. HATZIS: Yes, an absolute mess, Minister. People are coming every day. You said that no one would ever come again. Please, you are a serious person.
N. DENDIAS: Thank you for the compliment, but I don’t think anyone said that no one would ever come again.
T. HATZIS: We don’t have the videos ready.
L. BOLLA: In any case, many more have been coming, Minister, from July onwards, which means that the situation has reached the point of despair, gradually, at least on the islands which are the first reception areas. I would like to ask you first of all about whether any special preparation is in place or will be, for the potential of having a new wave of refugees based on what is happening now in Syria. Hundreds of Kurds are leaving their homes and many of them will probably reach the coast and attempt to cross into our country. Is there any preparation being made for this?
N. DENDIAS: The country has plans for dealing with emergency situations. Both the competent Minister, Michalis Chrisochoidis, and the Alternate Minister, Mr Koumoutsakos, have repeatedly made plans, talked with Europe, and explained what we can do and to what extent. Greece has a specific capability, not an unlimited capability. There is the European Civil Protection Organisation, which is used in similar cases; Greece has the capability to receive an even greater flow for a short period and under specific conditions, but this does not mean that Turkey is not obliged to avert such a possibility. We must be clear on that.
L. BOLLA: Since you mentioned Europe: you come into contact with your colleagues, our partners, and the answer we get from them is far different to what we see in practice. I mean that there is mention of solidarity in the Summits and the announcements, but Greece seems to be alone right now, Minister.
N. DENDIAS: That is not completely accurate. Frontex is carrying out its operations, amounts of money are being given to the country, there is know-how and assistance given to our country and efforts are being made to take this all to a higher level. Kyriakos Mitsotakis has set this issue, migration, as a topic for discussion at the Summit next week. I don’t believe that Greece will be left alone in this.
[…]
T. HATZIS: Thank you very much. We hope that what you told us will also be put into practice, I mean the agreements with the USA, since they always make agreements to suit themselves, mainly because they are a great power. One is also aware of the bad experiences we have from the past.
N. DENDIAS: Indeed, but in this case, there is much to gain, Mr Hatzis. Thank you very much.
October 10, 2019