JOURNALIST: Let’s go to the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Nikos Dendias. Good morning, Minister.
N. DENDIAS: Good morning, and good morning to your listeners.
[…]
JOURNALIST: Let’s talk about the ships. Can you explain exactly what’s happening with the Turkish vessel? Did it enter our waters? What did it do?
N. DENDIAS: I have a complete picture of what happened. Or nearly complete. We still waiting for some additional data. But, as you know, I don’t say much on things like this. I think it’s an issue we’re handling. We’ll do what has to be done, if anything more needs to be done. I think we should turn the page on this. There’s nothing we should ...
JOURNALIST: So there was nothing threatening, dangerous or annoying in what happened?
N. DENDIAS: Let me put it another way. Perhaps public opinion focused too much on this matter. The incident was blown out of proportion. It’s perfectly clear that the competent agencies had to be alert, monitor the situation and react in the proper way. In general, I always take the view that we shouldn’t give the other side the impression it can get under our skin whenever it wants to. This doesn’t mean – just so we’re clear on this – that we don't need to react in the way we should.
It’s just that those reactions should be composed and measured, so the other side doesn’t think they can make us play their game.
JOURNALIST: Are we seeing any results from the major diplomatic effort you launched regarding the Turkey-Libya agreement? What is your sense of things? Because I don’t want to believe the whole ‘Turkish isolation’ thing.
N. DENDIAS: We’re not trying to isolate anyone. We are trying to gather a large number of countries that see the reality of the situation in our region the same way we do. And then coordinate these countries’ moves.
Tomorrow, I’m going to Rome to meet with Mr. Di Maio, and the next day I’ll be in Malta, and next week I’m going to Tunisia. I’ll also be going to Algeria. I’ll see the other two members of the UN Security Council, whom I haven’t seen, Indonesia and Vietnam. I saw the Indonesian ambassador the day before yesterday to prepare the visit. We want the countries that have a say and that are dealing with the region’s issues to have a clear picture of Greece’s positions and to understand that we represent the side of reason.
If Turkey wants to join the side of reason, no one would be happier than me. After all, in recent decades, we have been the ones defying a number of partners by supporting Turkey’s European future. But Turkey has to want this. We can’t force it into anything.
And we would also like Turkey to see things in the clear European way we see them. We aren't creating a front against Turkey. We are creating a front of reason, which serves everyone’s interest. All societies’ interests. The rules – implementation of the rules of international law in the region – help everyone. Wouldn’t it be better for what’s happening in Libya not to be happening? Turkey sending ...
JOURNALIST: Does Turkey see it as a front of reason and not a front against Turkey? Because it looks to me like Turkey sees it as a front against Turkey.
N. DENDIAS: Not always. I want to be frank. Not always. This requires discussion and explanation. Not always. But when you are armed with reason, you always hope that, at the end of the day, the other side will see this, because that’s how it should see it. It's in the interest of Turkish society. How is involvement in Libya in Turkey's interest? How does sending military supplies to Libya help stability in the region? How does it help the Eastern Mediterranean?
JOURNALIST: I assume it’s to distract attention from what it wants to achieve in the Eastern Mediterranean, the oil and all that. It’s obviously a diversion. It isn’t doing it because it’s interested in Libya. It’s exerting pressure – I’ll put it that way.
N. DENDIAS: There really is a “blue homeland” ideology. I say blue homelands, flying pigs, lots of things. In other words, is there any chance the Central and Eastern Mediterranean will become a Turkish lake? No. It could very well become a sea of cooperation where Turkey sails quietly and can go to Libya whenever it wants. It needn’t transport weapons.
JOURNALIST: Do you think that’s what Turkey wants? Or does Turkey want to assert itself as a regional power and impose political power?
N. DENDIAS: No one denies that Turkey is a regional power, with which we want to have a smooth partnership.
JOURNALIST: It wants something more than that.
N. DENDIAS: This is the issue.
JOURNALIST: It wants more. It wants to control the region. That’s what it wants.
N. DENDIAS: Exactly. So we have to be vigilant.
JOURNALIST: Yes, yes.
N. DENDIAS: If Turkey wants recognition and respect for its role, it has it. It’s a given. Turkey has a population of 80 million, it’s our neighbouring country. It would be great to have good relations. A huge market for us, and we’re the country that can help them on their way to Europe if they choose to go that way. The way to cooperation with Europe, if they choose a European course, because we know the Europeans historically. Together through good times and bad. Who else could be the best friend in the region? Why do we choose this course? Does it help them and us in any way? This is what we are trying to tell them and this is what we are pointing out to all the countries of the region.
JOURNALIST: Do you think what you’re saying is getting through?
N. DENDIAS: So far, I haven’t been to a country where, once I’ve left, the announcements aren’t completely in line with Greece’s positions. And this didn’t happen because I’m a super-skilled negotiator who convinces them with the magic of my words. We are armed with reason and international law. When you have firm grounds for what you’re saying, people listen to you, because your audience wants there to be rules. No one wants to return to the jungle. No one wants to return to the first half of the 20th century, when there were constant clashes over the slightest disagreement. So you can have a common frame of reference. I repeat. When you have firm rules, firm grounds, when you’re armed with common sense, international law and a willingness to cooperate, Mr. Pretenteris, people will listen to you.
JOURNALIST: But I’ve heard some criticism – that we shouldn’t have got involved with Haftar. That we shouldn’t get involved in Libya either. There is an attitude in Greece that we shouldn’t get involved in anything, and, okay, I don’t know how far that goes.
N. DENDIAS: First of all, if you don’t get involved in anything, no one collaborates with you.
JOURNALIST: Yes, you don’t gain anything. Exactly.
N. DENDIAS: To be clear. We didn’t get involved with Haftar. There are three authorities in Libya that are recognised by the United Nations. One is the government in Tripoli. The other is the House of Representatives, and the third is the Libyan army, which is led by field marshal Haftar. We have spoken with all three sides. In New York, with the government in Tripoli, which deceived us in an unacceptable manner; with the Libyan House of Representatives and its President, who came to Athens – at the invitation of Mr. Tasoulas – and with whom the Hellenic Parliament is in ongoing communication, through Mr. Tasoulas; and with the Libyan army, through its leader field marshal Haftar.
I don’t understand – what was the objection to this? Should we not have spoken to one of the three? And those who are friendly towards us?
JOURNALIST: There is a school of thought throughout Greece that, in general, Greece should do nothing. For example, it should only go to The Hague. Are you considering The Hague?
N. DENDIAS: It will be a great destination. But it isn't that simple to get there.
JOURNALIST: Not at all.
N. DENDIAS: Because you have to set the terms on which you’ll go. And I say to everyone, no one wants peace more than the Mitsotakis government and Prime Minister Mitsotakis. But Greece is not Luxembourg. I wish we had the good fortune to be like today’s Luxembourg – not the Luxembourg of the first half of the 20th century, with the Germans invading. And I wish we didn’t have problems and we didn’t need to run around, left and right, and we could sit here in this nice neoclassical building on Vasilissis Sofias Ave. Unfortunately, that’s not our country. We are in a region and in an era that requires a great deal of effort, Mr. Pretenteris. But we are certainly not hawkish. Nevertheless, we have to defend Greece’s interests, and Greece’s interests are being promoted internationally.
JOURNALIST: Do you think a border-guarding effort might get results? Maritime and land borders? Is it an option not to guard the borders? I’m not saying ...
N. DENDIAS: I’m certain that it can get better results than in the past. Even the simple claim that we will guard the borders functions as a deterrent against a claim that says there are no maritime borders.
JOURNALIST: That’s correct.
N. DENDIAS: Because when you say there are no maritime borders, people say: “Great, why shouldn’t I cross there? Since there’s nothing stopping me.”
JOURNALIST: The migration issue: is the way we are dealing with it shifting to a policy, or is it still an isolated issue? What do I mean by that? Is it becoming part of an overall negotiation with Turkey or the European Union, or is it an isolated issue?
N. DENDIAS: No. No. Because the migration issue, first of all, is a European issue. It’s not a Greek-Turkish issue to be discussed in Greek-Turkish negotiations. What’s more, there is a reality that Greece and the Mitsotakis government understand very clearly. That Turkey is hosting 4.5-5 million people on its territory. Of which 3.5 million are refugees from Syria. Greece and the European Union realise they have an obligation to provide assistance with this – not with regard to Turkey, but for the society of these people living in Turkey. To ensure their living conditions meet a basic standard. This is financial assistance, which the European Union and Greece support and provide to meet the needs of these people. Beyond that, there is an issue of rules. Turkey can't threaten to open the “floodgates.” This is unreasonable. But these are European issues, Mr. Pretenteris.
JOURNALIST: And we insist on this. In other words, we're not attempting to create an autonomous policy on the migration issue. We see it as a European issue and we are with Europe.
N. DENDIAS: We are a European country. There are European borders. After all, most of these people don’t want to stay in Greece. They want to go somewhere else. We’re just in the middle.
JOURNALIST: Is Erdogan no longer using the migration issue? That’s the sense all of us have.
N. DENDIAS: I think he’s using it. Sometimes more, sometimes less. And I think he could also get better results with this issue. In other words, if Turkey promoted its record – that it has successfully hosted these people all these years – and promoted this record rather than making threats, I think it would get better results. But because we always choose to see the big picture – rather than reacting in the Balkan way, losing our temper over the slightest disagreement – we focus on the big picture.
JOURNALIST: Would you like there to be negotiations toward an agreement for The Hague? Is that on your mind? Does this government want this? Feasibility aside.
N. DENDIAS: We have always chosen to keep open channels of communication with Turkey. Greece and Turkey have a major dispute. The continental shelf, which, precisely due to the change in the International Law of the Sea over the years, includes a difference for the exclusive economic zone. We would be happy to discuss our differences with Turkey. To sit down and look at this dispute and set things down. If, during the negotiations, Turkey decides to raise the issue of my great-grandmother’s house on Paxos, which I have inherited, I must say I won’t agree to take that issue to The Hague. In other words, I don’t see what we have to discuss. So it depends on how Turkey sees this process. Greece is open to discussing things. Certainly. As always.
JOURNALIST: Do we have any indication that Turkey see things differently – has changed its perspective? I see the opposite: that it is leaning even farther to the other side.
N. DENDIAS: You can look at this in two ways. One is the way you mentioned, which is the right way. If you look at it, the first impression is that Turkey is trying to extend the differences, to raise issues that don’t exist, to create fantasy memoranda so we can discuss non-issues. There is also another school, which says: “Could I perhaps see this as a prologue to an effort to maximise things, precisely to create problems for my interlocutor’s position, when in reality I actually want to find a solution?”
This is always my wish, because I believe deeply that Greece and Turkey can resolve the issue, and this is our common interest and our common fate. I’m trying to see whether the second view actually exists. And to explore this possibility, which would be excellent for both peoples and for both societies and both governments. Just to be clear.
JOURNALIST: How was Erdogan in the one-on-one meeting? With your team?
N. DENDIAS: I haven’t had a one-on-one meeting with President Erdogan.
JOURNALIST: I mean with ...
N. DENDIAS: President Erdogan is very pleasant in person. He has that easterner’s open-heartedness, which we also have to a great extent. An open-hearted person isn’t constrained. On the other hand, of course, he often expressed thoughts and things that are incompatible with how we see reality. And I won’t hide the fact that this dismays me.
I’ll give you an example. When Mr. Mitsotakis, the last time they met, said, “show me the memoranda you signed with Libya,” I expected him to hand them over immediately. Immediately. In other words, what’s the difference? We had them the next day anyway. He didn’t give us the memoranda. Now, is there any point in that?
JOURNALIST: It shows a gesture. So, to sum up, you think that, in spite of everything, a channel of communication might open up with Turkey?
N. DENDIAS: I have to hope that’s the case. And I have to pursue it and never close the doors. But Turkey often makes our lives difficult. I want to be frank.
JOURNALIST: That’s the truth. We were with Nikos Dendias, the Minister of Foreign Affairs. We thank him very much for everything he said.
N. DENDIAS: Thank you very much.
JOURNALIST: Have a good day, Minister. Thank you very much.
February 3, 2020