G. AFTIAS: We have the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Nikos Dendias, on the line. Good morning, Mr. Dendias.
N. DENDIAS: Good morning, Mr. Aftias. Good morning to your guests and good morning to your viewers.
G. AFTIAS: On the front page of KATHIMERINI, I read, “ ... Athens is playing a cautious game of diplomatic poker, as Ankara goes to the extreme, with Erdogan’s decision to convert Hagia Sophia into a mosque, turning its back on the international community. The upcoming Mitsotakis-Macron meeting on the margins of the European Council is of particular importance.” Minister, you have the floor.
N. DENDIAS: Mr. Aftias, first of all, we are all extremely sad about this decision from the Turkish President. It reall goes too far. It is even reversing the tradition of his own country – I remind you that the decision making Hagia Sophia a museum was made by the founder of modern Turkey, Kemal Ataturk, in 1934 – turning his back on the international community and its rules. That’s the truth.
And this comes following a number of provocative actions against Greece and the countries of the region. It isn’t just Greece; there’s Cyprus, Libya, Egypt. Nor should we ignore the fact that President Erdogan shows absolutely no spirit of cooperation in the context of international law.
But I must underscore a danger that we have to avoid. The danger of seeing the Hagia Sophia issue as a Greek-Turkish issue. It is not a Greek-Turkish issue. It is not an EU-Turkish issue. It is an issue of renunciation of rules and of not respecting rules that concern the global community.
Greece must address Turkey on this issue as an agent of global vlaues. Of course, Hagia Sophia is a part of every Greek’s heart, but in the present debate this is added to the fact of the global significance of the monument, and our dialogue with and demands from the global community must concern the monument’s global importance, not just its enormous sentimental value in the heart of Hellenism.
It would be a trap to see this as a Greek-Turkish dispute, and we must not fall into that trap.
G. AFTIAS: In this direction, there are reports that there has been an initial reaction from France – and we’ll see it later on – and that the issue will be raised by the Prime Minister at the Summit Meeting. And at the same time, you have already begun briefing the Ministers of Foreign Affairs. Where are we on this, Mr. Dendias?
N. DENDIAS: Mr. Aftias, unfortunately – I’m not pleased when our relations with Turkey deteriorate – this was more or less predicted. I had sent a letter to the Director General of UNESCO with whom I talked when I was in Paris, and she had sent an unpublished letter and had unpublished communication with the Turkish side to prevent this from happening.
At that time, we wanted to give Turkey the chance to change direction without giving the impression that the global community was obliging it to do so. To make it seem as if it were Turkey’s own decision. Unfortunately, the Turkish side did not accept, did not appreciate, our effort, instead staying its course.
I must say, I heard the Turkish President’s speech. There was an automatic translation yesterday. It was a very long speech – about 45 minutes – and some of the arguments really were incredible. If I understood correctly, he indirectly accused Kemal Ataturk, referring to “curses” on anyone who converted Hagia Sophia into a museum. Things that I find incomprehensible. But in any event, from here on, this is the situation.
G. AFTIAS: What do we do now, Minister?
N. DENDIAS: I’ll tell you. Our country has become an agent for the values of the global community. First of all, through my colleagues, the other Foreign Ministers, and also through UNESCO, which has an institutional responsibility to protect monuments.
Turkey willingly made Hagia Sophia a UNESCO monument. Nobody forced that on Turkey. UNESCO didn’t go and say, “bring it here so we can make it a world heritage site.” Turkey itself – and correctly, in another outlook on things – chose to have this monument characterized as a world heritage monument.
G. AFTIAS: From here on, Minister, apart from our being the agent, the tip of the spear, if you will, against all of these developments, with all of humanity, do we also need to press for economic repercussions for Turkey? I’m not suggesting it – God forbid!
N. DENDIAS: No, no. There nothing wrong with making suggestions.
G. AFTIAS: I’m describing the prevailing climate.
N. DENDIAS: I understand that, but I said something earlier, and I ask you to see how important it is. On Monday, tomorrow, we will be discussing the Turkey issue in Brussels. Greece has asked the European Union to prepare a package of very strong measures against Turkey, to be used if Turkey violates the sovereignty and the sovereign rights of Greece.
G. AFTIAS: Right.
N. DENDIAS: Because, this concerns its own rights.
G. AFTIAS: That’s an important piece of news you’re giving us.
N. DENDIAS: It will support Cyprus in imposing the sanctions that concern Cypriot rights. I’m leaving Athens at dawn tomorrow, together with Nikos Christodoulides, the Cypriot Minister, to go to Brussels. And before the meeting of the Foreign Affairs Council, we have a meeting with Josep Borrell, the High Representative of the European Union.
But these sanctions will not concern the issue of Hagia Sophia, just to be clear. On the Hagia Sophia issue, the international community must do its own duty. I will refer to Hagia Sophia, because it’s an indication of how Turkey sees things. But UNESCO, the EU, the United Nations – not just Greece – have to take initiatives on the Hagia Sophia issue.
G. AFTIAS: International action. Right.
N. DENDIAS: We aren’t going to fall into the trap of a Greek-Turkish dispute. It isn’t a Greek-Turkish dispute.
G. AFTIAS: Absolutely clear. From today’s newspaper, “... the French are rushing ahead with surveys in Crete,” and the French have no special fondness for Erdogan.
N. DENDIAS: I don’t think French-Turkish relations are at their high point right now, to be honest. And I don’t think that is France’s fault.
N. STEFOS: Minister, good morning. May I ask you something?
N. DENDIAS: Good morning, Mr. Stefos. It’s good to hear you.
N. STEFOS: I want to ask you how realistic or utopian it is to expect that Turkey might back down from this decision it has taken.
N. DENDIAS: Mr. Stefos, I want to be frank. A Turkish diplomat friend of mine, who isn’t currently active, once told me that you can expect President Erdogan “to go right, to go left, but don’t expect him to back down easily,” because he has a curious outlook on things.
So, I must say that, in spite of the enormous damage being done to Turkey’s image by this decision, we shouldn’t kid ourselves. A very large portion of the Turkish political and diplomatic establishment is horrified at this decision because, due to this decision, an enormous cost will accrue for Turkey. Don’t underestimate it.
N. STEFOS: So, there is hope.
N. DENDIAS: But not right away. And I should also say something that I say as a person: For me, the thought of covering over the wonderful mosaics of Hagia Sophia, the Pantocrator mosaic, is really horrible.
If you’ve seen the Pantocrator mosaic in the narthex of Hagia Sophia and you realise that now a civilized country will cover over this artistic monument – not to say religious, because that concerns us, as Christians, because Hagia Sophia isn’t just Orthodox. It was constructed and consecrated before the Schism. Consequently, it concerns all Christianity. The Schism came much later.
The fact that Turkey is going to hide this monument from the global community, removing it from global cultural heritage out of some unbelievable fixation, is honestly beyond me.
And, as President Erdogan said that there are 453 Orthodox churches operating in Turkey, I respond that in Thrace, which is much smaller than Turkey (not even 1/100 the size of Turkey), there are 256 mosques operating. So, I think comments of this kind ...
G. AFTIAS: Why hasn’t the Pope spoken out?
N. DENDIAS: I met with the Pope ...
G. AFTIAS: And?
N. DENDIAS: I went to the Vatican, if you remember.
G. AFTIAS: I remember.
N. DENDIAS: On Monday, we’ll be launching an effort towards all the churches, not just the Catholic church. This is why I said earlier that Hagia Sophia isn't just a Greek or Orthodox issue ...
G. AFTIAS: It’s an international issue. Minister, I want you to tell me this: Erdogan does what he says he’s going to do. He said,” I’ll go to Libya, conclude an agreement, ...” and he did it. He said he would convert Hagia Sophia, and he did it. If Erdogan sends ships south of Karpathos, close to Crete, anywhere else, will Greece’s stance be to wait for the unticipated results of the Summit Meeting? That “Erdogan mustn’t dare move onto our continental shelf, into our areas of sovereignty?”
N. DENDIAS: What we will be discussing tomorrow is how the European family will react to a violation of the sovereignty and the sovereign rights of a member state such as Greece.
There is a qualitative difference that I have explained to my European partners, and the Prime Minister, Kyriakos Mitsotakis, has also made this very clear: Greece, unlike the Republic of Cyprus, has Armed Forces – and capable Armed Forces.
So, Europe needs to understand that it will have to take a stance quickly to deter. Because if it doesn't deter, it will not be at all pleased by what happens. Not at all.
G. AFTIAS: What could happen, for instance?
N. DENDIAS: Mr. Aftias, I don’t want to use words or phrases – I am the Minister of Foreign Affairs, and I measure my every word. But we have told Turkey that we will not just sit by.
We have a constitutional duty to protect our rights. Nobody gave us these rights to manage as we see fit. We have only the duty to protect them, and this is how the Greek state will act: constitutionally. It will fully defend its sovereignty and its sovereign rights. And Europe needs to know this. Greece has Armed Forces.
G. AFTIAS: Mr. Dendias is sending a loud message right now.
N. DENDIAS: It is simply clear. It is neither a threat nor anything else. It is clear. This is our position, which the Prime Minister has set out repeatedly.
G. AFTIAS: Exactly. And I have this to say: When the late Miltiadis Evert said that “the borders of Greece are also European borders,” and this was written in KATHIMERINI, Mr. Dendias, since then ...
N. DENDIAS: I remember his saying it, Mr. Aftias. And in fact, I remember it with a map.
G. AFTIAS: With a map. Exactly. I think this firm line Greece is following now will be adopted by Europe: that Greece’s borders are Europe’s borders.
N. DENDIAS: May I make a final comment?
G. AFTIAS: Please.
N. DENDIAS: National consensus and unity is always of enormous importance. It is the biggest weapon we have, internationally. Our internal unity.
I’m not saying this because I’m implying anything. I’m just saying it is imperative that we continue to be united on our national issues. It would be tragic, in the midst of this crisis the country is going through, if we were not a single fist.
G. AFTIAS: Thank you very much for being here today and for the very important statements you made.
N. DENDIAS: Thank you very much. Thank you, have a good day. And a good day to your guests and your viewers. Goodbye.
July 12, 2020