K. PAPACHLIMITZOS: Does the recent phone call between Kyriakos Mitsotakis and Tayyip Erdogan mark a thaw in Greek-Turkish relations? What’s the next step?
N. DENDIAS: Our government has stressed that, in spite of differences with Turkey, it is always vital for the channels of communication between the two countries to remain open. The prime minister’s recent phone call with president Erdogan highlights exactly this. But to move ahead we need to see actual de-escalation on the part of Turkey. Substantial dialogue requires, first of all, respect for the principle of good neighbourly relations.
K. PAPACHLIMITZOS: There are a number of voices calling for systematic and substantial dialogue with Turkey. What are the prerequisites for resuming the dialogue, and where might this dialogue lead? Will we resort to The Hague at the end?
N. DENDIAS: We want dialogue with Turkey, too, but not when we’re being blackmailed and provoked. If Turkey maintains this aggressive stance, we can’t say, “let’s sit down and talk.” The channels of communication must be kept open, of course. But for substantial dialogue to take place, Turkey has to realise that its stance is counterproductive, undermining not only the prospects for dialogue, but also the security and stability of the region and, ultimately, its own interests. Regarding recourse to the International Court in The Hague, it is a given that Greece does not fear international justice, because it doesn’t fear the implementation of international legality. This is the compass of our foreign policy. Of course, recourse to The Hague requires an agreement between the parties. It requires mutual acceptance of the issue the Court is to rule on. It also requires mutual acceptance of International Law, and in particular the Law of the Sea, as the framework for our talks. So, allow me to say that, for the time being, such an eventuality is far off.
K. PAPACHLIMITZOS: What is the government’s position on Kastelorizo with regard to the continental shelf and the Exclusive Economic Zone? The president of the Foreign Ministry’s Scientific Council, Christos Rozakis, called the island “isolated.”
N. DENDIAS: Professor Rozakis’ scientific career is beyond question. We fully respect all of his views, but that doesn’t mean that, as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, we adopt them as a national position. Regarding Kastelorizo, the International Law of the Sea is crystal clear. As an inhabited island, it has the same rights to maritime zones as mainland territory does, regardless of its size. The main criterion is economic sustainability – in other words, its ability to support human life. And in this specific case, not only does it do so, but the Municipality of Megisti includes, in addition to Kastelorizo, Ro and Stroggili, islands that are also inhabited and, consequently, have a right to a continental shelf and EEZ. The International Law of the Sea is clear and cannot be applied selectively or arbitrarily. And having a customary dimension, it is binding for everyone, regardless of whether they are parties to the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea. In academia, different or opposed interpretations can co-exist, promoting scientific research. But in inter-state relations, there is a very clear and firm legal framework, the International Law of the Sea, and strict compliance with this framework by all members of the international community is, fortunately, binding, because this ensures international peace and stability.
K. PAPACHLIMITZOS: You visited Tunisia a few days ago. How are our country’s alliances in North Africa and the Eastern Mediterranean taking shape, in the midst of Turkey’s ongoing provocations in the region?
N. DENDIAS: Exercising truly proactive and extrovert diplomacy, our country has created a network of synergies and has developed mutual understandings with all of the countries that have an impact on developments in our wider region. My visit to Tunisia fully reconfirmed that, with this country too, we share a common outlook on developments in the Mediterranean, as well as the conviction that International Law is the only foundation for the peaceful coexistence of states. I can assure you that all of the states in the region are opposed to foreign interventions and imports of mercenaries and weapons in Libya, which are in violation of the UN resolutions and the Berlin Conclusions. In other words, they share our country’s views. Thus, in contrast with Turkey, whose actions destabilise our region – just consider its role in Libya, Syria and Iraq, as well as its ongoing provocations in Cyprus and the Aegean – Greece is without question a factor not only for stability, but also for substantial understanding among the countries of the region. And as I have said in the past, this network of synergies our country is building is not directed against anyone. Turkey is very welcome to participate, on the obvious condition of respect, in practice, for International Law and the principle of good neighbourly relations.
K. PAPACHLIMITZOS: Was Haftar a “mistaken investment,” as implied by the deputy national security advisor, Thanos Dokos? How can our country influence the outcome in Libya, which you visited recently?
N. DENDIAS: As the Minister of Foreign Affairs, I must highlight that there was neither a “mistake” nor an “investment.” As shown by my recent visit to Libya and my meeting with the Speaker of the Libyan House of Representatives, Mr. Saleh – as well as my recent meetings with my counterparts – Greece is pursuing a political solution in Libya, participating actively in developments and trying to fill the void of our absence from developments in previous years. Moreover, we are making constant efforts to actively assist the ceasefire in Libya. Through our moves and meetings in the international community, we have succeeded in promoting the Libya issue as a key issue of regional security and stability to the international community. It is now clear to everyone that foreign intervention undermines the stability of the region and, at the same time, ignores the interests of the Libyan people. At long last, Greece is present in the Mediterranean with alliances, strategy and an active foreign policy.
K. PAPACHLIMITZOS: Has operation “Irini” in Libya failed? In the end, is the international community perhaps turning a blind eye to Turkey’s interventions in Libya?
N. DENDIAS: As a direct neighbour of Libya, Greece remains committed to the efforts towards a peaceful solution to the crisis in the country and expressly states its intention to continue to contribute in any way possible to the peace process. And we are doing this through our participation in operation “Irini,” a vital tool for enforcing the arms embargo in Libya and implementing the decisions of the UN Security Council. And operation “Irini” is also proof that the European Union is playing a substantial role in international developments. Although operation “Irini” has yet to stop the violations of the arms embargo – because it lacks the necessary means – it has clearly shown which country is violating the embargo: Turkey. It is thus contributing to the complete condemnation of Turkish interventionism in Libya, which is also the expressed position of the European Union and the Arab world. In fact, at the beginning of last week, the French president, Mr. Macron – during a joint press conference with the German chancellor – spoke of Turkey’s historical and criminal responsibility in Libya, while the German Minister of Foreign Affairs asked that the countries violating the arms embargo be publicly named. So, the international community is well aware who is causing instability in the region and jeopardising security not only in the Mediterranean but also in the wider region. So, I think it would be a misjudgment, to say the least, to call operation Irini a “failure.”
K. PAPACHLIMITZOS: How close are we to an agreement with Egypt on maritime zones, and what might such an agreement “cost” in terms of the effect of Greek islands?
N. DENDIAS: The negotiations with Egypt on delimitation of maritime zones are under way. I visited Cairo recently, with a technical team from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. The negotiations have resumed and another meeting of the two sides’ technical teams is expected to take place soon. But it is a given that these negotiations are more complicated than the ones with Italy, where there was an existing delimitation of the continental shelf. In any event, Greece wants an agreement with Egypt based on International Law and the Law of the Sea – an agreement that safeguards our sovereign rights, which, after all, is also the constitutional obligation of every Greek government. And we are continuing to work in this framework.
K. PAPACHLIMITZOS: Has Turkey’s recent conduct brought Greece and France closer together? How are the relations between the two countries developing, and what do you expect from this allied country in the future?
N. DENDIAS: Greece and France are not just allies and partners. We share the same principles, based on International Law and reciprocity, and we are prepared to stand by each other in difficult times. France’s support for Greece, as well as for Cyprus, is longstanding and uninterrupted. In this case, we have a mutual view of the situation, and the firm and unequivocal condemnation of Turkey’s provocations by president Macron and my counterpart, Jean-Yves Le Drian, is indisputable proof of this. In fact, I recently had the pleasure of meeting with the French Minister of Foreign Affairs and participating jointly with him in a meeting of the EU Foreign Affairs Council, where we reaffirmed to our European colleagues our shared outlook on Turkey’s aggressiveness, which impacts not only Greece and Cyprus, but also the whole of Europe and the Mediterranean. Moreover, it is no coincidence that there is a French naval presence and that France is participating in operation “Irini” in our region. This participation sends a clear message in rejecting international illegality. Nor is it a coincidence that France participated in our recent joint declaration with Cyprus, Egypt and the United Arab Emirates. I am certain that our excellent cooperation with France, founded on our common positions on defending international legality, will continue in the future, based on understanding that I hope will soon be manifested in the most practical manner.
K. PAPACHLIMITZOS: Greece’s relations with the USA have been upgraded, but the revelations from the former national security advisor John Bolton, as well as the journalist Carl Bernstein, reveal a very close relationship between Trump and Erdogan. Where do Greek-U.S. relations stand and to what extent can we “bet” on Washington’s support at a critical moment in the Aegean?
N. DENDIAS: Greece-U.S. relations are excellent and our cooperation with the U.S. is ongoing, close and constructive on all levels. In fact, an important American exercise is to be held soon in Alexandroupoli, highlighting the strategic importance of the city’s port and the ever-closer defence cooperation between Greece and the U.S., to which the updated MDCA contributed. And let’s not forget that Greece is one of the few countries with which the U.S. maintains a Strategic Dialogue, acknowledging Greece’s importance for U.S. interests. Moreover, it is no coincidence that we have repeatedly seen statements supporting Greece’s positions on the rights of our islands to maritime zones under International Law, from the competent officials of the U.S. State Department, the most recent example being the statement from U.S. Assistant Secretary Francis Fannon. And it is a given that the U.S. wants stability and security in the region. Obviously, none of us wants to come to what you called a “critical moment.” And I assure you that, in close communication and cooperation with the U.S., we are trying avoid reaching a “critical moment.”
July 4, 2020