T. CHATZIS: Let’s meet now with Mr. Dendias, the Minister of Foreign Affairs. Good morning, Minister.
N. DENDIAS: Good morning, Mr. Chatzis. Good morning to your listeners.
T. CHATZIS: Let’s start with the latest issue: the trilateral meeting that took place on the German side’s initiative. A great deal has been said about this issue – which was hidden, perhaps causing a certain annoyance – and about what might have been agreed at this meeting and whether these meetings might lead to an agreement.
N. DENDIAS: Mr. Chatzis, it wasn't hidden. It just wasn’t announced. This was a meeting, on our side, with a ministry official, Ambassador Sourani. This meeting actually took place, as you said, on the initiative of the German presidency of the European Union, on the Chancellor’s initiative. Greece had no reason to refuse. We have declared urbi et orbi that Greece is open to dialogue – under certain clear conditions, of course.
Greece could not refuse, for one main reason: at exactly the same point in time, I was in Brussels asking my colleagues to agree to give the High Representative a mandate to prepare a list of sanctions on Turkey. At a time when Greece is asking for sanctions, it would be contradictory to refuse to talk to the Turkish side and hear its explanations. Because then the German presidency would be able to say that, as you refuse any communication, how can you ask for sanctions? So it was correct for both to happen ...
T. CHATZIS: Okay, it was correct for both to happen, but did Turkey provide the necessary explanations at this meeting, Minister? Because that’s what you just said. That the meeting was held ...
N. DENDIAS: No. First, they did not provide explanations. Second, I said what could have happened at some meeting. I’m not claiming that this happened at this specific meeting.
T. CHATZIS: No, no. I didn’t say that.
N. DENDIAS: I’m saying it to you, straight out. It's obvious that I can’t always say everything. I think everyone respects that. But I am saying that Turkey’s overtures were not such as to potentially stop me from going through with my request for sanctions in Brussels. This is obvious.
T. CHATZIS: Just a minute. I’ll let my colleague Sofia Kostidi step in. She has all the reports on this. And Sofia is from there. She grew up there and really knows what is happening in Turkey. When I say she really knows, I mean it, but she has the reports. And I would like to ask you about the issues one at a time. First, Hagia Sophia, and second, the Mediterranean. What exactly they are saying – and we’d like you to respond.
N. DENDIAS: Please, go ahead.
S. KOSTIDI: Last night, the Turkish President, Erdogan, in an address to the Turkish people, compared 15 July, the coup attempted against him, with the Battle of Manzikert. He said that “a century ago, we lost ¾ of our territory,” and he said that “to understand 15 July, we have to know about the Battle of Manzikert, the conquest of Constantinople, which we commemorate and exalt through the opening of Hagia Sophia for prayer. We are succeeding in once again raising our prayers to the heavens from Hagia Sophia – prayers that fell silent 86 years ago.”
T. CHATZIS: So, that’s what he said. That’s what they’re saying. That is their narrative. A narrative that annoys us in the extreme, and I think everyone understands this. What is your response to everything he’s saying? He’s saying they extend from the Indian Ocean to Vienna. That’s what Erdogan is saying.
N. DENDIAS: The Turkish President’s invoking of the defeat of Romanos IV Diogenes at Manzikert – in 1071, if I remember correctly – has, I think, very little to do with modern Turkey and the modern reality.
I don’t want to presume on the Turkish President, but I think it would have been better for him to refer to common European values, human rights, the rule of law. In other words, things that concern today’s people and govern the way a modern country functions.
But beyond that, I won't speak for Turkey. I have no right to do so. I will say that, next Wednesday, we will be having a very large meeting at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. I have asked for our ambassador to UNESCO to come back, and together with the Minister of Culture, Mrs. Mendoni, and all of the competent officials, we will mark out the next steps with regard to Hagia Sophia.
But I want to clarify something. The issue of Hagia Sophia as a world heritage monument. Hagia Sophia is not a Greek-Turkish issue. The Republic of Turkey chose to have this monument inscribed on UNESCO’s world heritage list. Turkey is bound by the status of protected monuments. I have worked a great deal on UNESCO issues, because I worked for three years to get the old town of Corfu – where I’m from – world monument status. I know the law on this. What Turkey is doing completely contravenes the legal status that UNESCO provides for monuments. We – not as Greeks, but as protectors of the monument – will act within our rights, within the right every person on the planet has to enjoy cultural goods, to protect the monument and to mobilise the global community as much as we can. More after Wednesday’s meeting.
T. CHATZIS: However, Minister, you said we are defending a monument. A global monument. A cultural monument. That’s what you said. But Hagia Sophia ...
N. DENDIAS: Actually, Mr. Chatzis, we are defending universal human values.
T. CHATZIS: Agreed. But Hagia Sophia isn’t just that. It has a special significance for Greeks. In other words, it isn’t just a museum, which you can defend, saying, “it’s the Louvre, leave it alone.” It doesn’t work that way. So, for Greeks – because you said we aren’t acting as Greeks, but as world citizens – allow me to raise this issue here. In other words, how can this happen? Are we forfeiting the value Hagia Sophia has for us? That Istanbul has for us? I’m not saying we should take up arms and go to the City. I’m not saying that, but we can’t just ...
N. DENDIAS: I am certain that you are asking me this question on behalf of the understandable sentiments of all Greeks, myself included. I understand it completely. But I must say to our fellow Greeks, whose shared sentiment you are expressing in your question – and I thank you for that – that the biggest trap Turkey can lure us into is to turn the Hagia Sophia issue into a Greek-Turkish dispute. Turkey made a big mistake. It misjudged the situation. It offended the global community, regardless of nationality, regardless of the past, regardless of religious beliefs. We have to base our arguments on this. This is the national stance, so that we can get results.
T. CHATZIS: I understand what your position is, the Greek side’s position, the Greek government’s position. It’s that we don’t have a bilateral dispute with Turkey on this specific issue. It is a global issue, and that’s where it has to be resolved. Okay, I respect your right to your opinion. Beyond that, the citizens will judge. Sofia Kotsidi will tell you. We’ll move on to the second major issue we want to discuss with you. Sofia?
S. KOSTIDI: The big concern is the Eastern Mediterranean. Erdogan went on and again referred to the Eastern Mediterranean in his address, saying that “through our steps in the Eastern Mediterranean, we showed our determination to support our rights and, naturally, the rights of the Turkish Cypriots. Turkey is a country that can neutralise threats that turn against it.” Yesterday, the Turkish Defence Minister, Mr. Akar, was on the same wavelength, saying that “we continue to protect our interests in Cyprus, in our blue homeland and in our skies.”
T. CHATZIS: It’s clear what the Turks want, Minister. Since 1973, they’ve had a specific line. Co-exploitation of the Aegean. That’s what they want. Beyond that, everything else they’ve done has been on this specific line, this strategy. So, I ask you, what is the Greek side’s reaction to what you just heard? And don’t say we’re global citizens. They’re disputing our territorial waters and ...
N. DENDIAS: Mr. Chatzis, don’t underestimate our role as global citizens.
T. CHATZIS: No, but we’re ...
N. DENDIAS: It is neither small nor negligible. Greece has a clear policy. Its policy is founded on international law and the Law of the Sea. Unfortunately, Turkey – allow me to extend the question you were kind enough to ask me – doesn't limit its illegal claims to the Aegean. It extends them to the Eastern Mediterranean and recently ...
T. CHATZIS: That’s what Sofia said.
N. DENDIAS: ... through the null and void Turkish-Libyan memorandum, it extended them to the Libyan Sea. Turkey is a country that – and I hope we’re wrong, but this is what its actions show – seems to be returning to a neo-Ottoman doctrine and is trying to dominate in the Eastern and Central Mediterranean, ignoring the provisions of international law and the Law of the Sea. Our country has stated clearly that it will fully defend its rights, as these rights are enshrined in the treaties. I am referring to the Treaty of Lausanne, International Law and the Law of the Sea. And a number of other countries are backing Greece, with views similar to those of Greece on these issues. These countries have significantly increased in number. We share an outlook with countries we did not have close relations with in the past. I’m referring to the Emirates, Saudi Arabia. Countries with which Greece now has clear understandings. And these understandings are understandings on international law and theLaw of the Sea. Israel, Jordan. We have opened channels of communication with countries we didn’t have such close relations with: Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia. Greece is pursuing an understanding with countries that accept international law and the Law of the Sea as self-evident prerequisites for action.
T. CHATZIS: Agreed. No one doubts what you’re describing. That’s the way it is. But we have to take into account whether Turkey will respect all of this. Because, so far, we haven’t seen it respect anything. Right now, the Turks have a strategy, as I said, and they are playing their game based on that strategy. They don’t respect the things you’re talking about. They’re not interested. You went to Egypt. You reached the agreement with Italy, and the Turks started talking about drilling. And I’m asking you straight out: If they try to drill, what will happen, Minister? That’s the issue.
N. DENDIAS: Mr. Chatzis, we have explained very clearly to our partners and friends in the European Union and in all the international fora, as well as directly to Turkey on the bilateral level, through Prime Minister Mitsotakis, that Greece has an absolute duty to defend its rights. There can be no discussion on that – nothing to announce or negotiate. I have often said ...
T. CHATZIS: I’m asking you what we’ll do. You’re not answering me.
N. DENDIAS: I answered you to the extent I should. We will absolutely defend ...
T. CHATZIS: ... it scares me ...
N. DENDIAS: There’s nothing to be scared of. If there’s anyone who should be scared, it isn’t you. I assure you, sincerely. You have your Greek passport; you are a Greek citizen. Consequently, you have no reason to fear the actions I’m implying.
T. CHATZIS: I understand.
N. DENDIAS: I’m not implying. I’m just saying, anyone who even considers ... I’m one of the people who hopes for close relations with Turkey, friendly relations with Turkey, but Turkey has to respect international law for this to happen. It has to respect the Law of the Sea.
T. CHATZIS: It doesn’t. It doesn’t respect it. Don’t you see that?
N. DENDIAS: That is what we’re saying.
T. CHATZIS: There are people in Xanthi, in Komotini, in Thrace who say, “I’m a Turk. Why are you saying I’m a Greek? I’m a Turk.” Fine. Why don’t you hand him his shoes so he can go to Turkey, since he’s a Turk? Why don’t you do that? I’m not saying you, personally.
N. DENDIAS: You’re obviously not saying I should do it. Nor is there ...
T. CHATZIS: Because we've been through this sort of unpleasantness in our history. Because they say, “I’m a Turk, sir.”
N. DENDIAS: I see you’re in something of a nationalistic fever today, Mr. Chatzis. The situation with Turkey is very serious. It is a fact that Turkey – throughout the term of the Mitsotakis government, and in spite of any hopes we had – has driven Greek-Turkish relations towards and impasse, through a number of arbitrary and unacceptable actions: The Turkey-Libya memorandum, the situation in Evros, the flyovers, announcing blocks next to Rhodes and Crete. But I want to make it clear once again, and I thank you for this opportunity: The country will absolutely defend its sovereignty and its sovereign rights, as it has a constitutional duty to do and as any Greek government would do. The duty of every Greek government, and thus of the Mitsotakis government, deriving from the country’s Constitution, is to defend the country’s sovereignty and its sovereign rights. And we can’t make any concessions on this.
L. BOLA: Minister, many analysts are saying that we are entering a critical time, especially leading up to the U.S. elections. A period of time during which Turkey can take advantage of the confusion there might be in Washington to put some of its plans into action. I want to ask you, first of all, whether you agree with this assessment. And how would you respond to the 75% of citizens who, in the survey ALPHA carried out yesterday, responded that they are concerned about a deterioration in our relations with Turkey in the coming time.
N. DENDIAS: I would probably say that I am a small part of that 75%. Actually, the way Turkey has been behaving of late leaves our country no room for complacency. And you’re absolutely right to add the parameter of the upcoming U.S. elections. History shows, that Turkey has often taken advantage of the run-up to U.S. elections. A period of time when there is a power vacuum in the United States. The most salient example is 1974 – one such distressing situation.
T. CHATZIS: With Cyprus.
N. DENDIAS: On the other hand, however, if there is something that can reassure Greek public opinion, it is that the Greek government, the Mitsotakis government, has a firm grasp of the situation.
T. CHATZIS: You gave us some very serious perspective, as you have done throughout the interview, of course, because, as you know, your statements to the news media go to other countries.
N. DENDIAS: The Minister of Foreign Affairs always speaks at home, but is heard abroad.
T. CHATZIS: Vangelis Giakoumis, my colleague, wants to ask you a question.
V. GIAKOUMIS: Minister, I would like to ask whether, following the mandate you gave Mr. Borrell in Brussels yesterday to draw up a list of sanctions against Turkey, whether the trilateral meeting was a result of the mandate you gave – the Greek positions that were accepted by the Council of Foreign Ministers. And a second question if I may: whether you’re afraid there might be a ‘heated’ incident.
N. DENDIAS: Mr. Giakoumis, that’s not exactly the order in which things happened. The meeting had nothing to do with the decision on sanctions made by the Council of Ministers. They are two independent procedures. In any event, the meeting in Berlin had nothing to do with the Ministers’ decision. It happened first. Beyond that, I can’t give you the probability of a heated incident. I hope and believe that, if Turkey comes to its senses, it will realise that this isn't in the interest of Turkish society. Any incident. What is in the interest of Turkish society, the Turkish people, Turkey itself, are good relations with Greece. Greece wants to have good relations with Turkey. Turkey is a candidate for EU membership. It has no reason to and no interest in having bad relations with a member state.
T. CHATZIS: You said this at the outset, as well. But if they go to drill, in our territorial waters or in Cyprus’s, is this considered a heated incident? Will we consider it a heated incident?
N. DENDIAS: I’m not going to consult a thermometer, Mr. Chatzis. I’ll say that it is completely unacceptable and that Greece will do what it has to do to defend its sovereignty and its sovereign rights.
T. CHATZIS: What is it that we’ll do, Minister? So we know. So we’re prepared, at least.
N. DENDIAS: Allow me to say that television is not the platform for announcing the rules of engagement of the Armed Forces or for announcing plans for a response to Turkish actions. But I will say what I can and must say: that this is utterly unacceptable to us. And we say it calmly, without threats, without bluster, so that the other side understands.
T. CHATZIS: But do you think such an action threatens our vital space, impinges our national interests, our national sovereignty? That’s what I’m asking.
N. DENDIAS: Our sovereignty and our sovereign rights are clearly delineated. They cannot be disputed. The Turks know them, the Europeans know them. In the past, Turkey has often carried out violations of our sovereignty and our sovereign rights. What you’re saying is correct. But the Greek side, regardless of what government was in power – I’m not talking about the Mitsotakis government; these violations span a number of years – the Greek side has always reacted in the appropriate manner.
T. CHATZIS: But earlier you said that if something like this happens – if they infringe our national sovereign rights – we will react based on what the Constitution says. We will defend these rights. Until now, if they have been infringed, we have not defended them in the best way. I mean, excuse me ...
N. DENDIAS: If you allow me to give you an example, I would ask that we not go into this further, because it could be misconstrued by the other side. We have explained to them very clearly what will happen. But if I may, I think that in Evros, in February and March, as well as in the Aegean, the country did a fine job of defending its sovereignty and it sovereign rights.
T. CHATZIS: I will obey your order. You are a Minister, after all ...
N. DENDIAS: Not an order, just a request. I can’t give you orders.
T. CHATZIS: Now, let’s go to Nikos Panagiotopoulos for one last question.
N. PANAGIOTOPOULOS: Minister, regarding the meetings and the channel of communication we need to have with Turkey, there are those who say that, at this stage, with so many provocations, even this meeting of officials in Berlin should not have taken place – and just a few days after Erdogan’s decision on Hagia Sophia. And I’d like you to comment on the European and U.S. reactions to the Turkish provocations, because I’ve heard grumblings here at home that their reactions have been tepid.
N. DENDIAS: I’ll answer both questions frankly. First of all, the Greek side must not fall into the trap of allowing Turkey to say that we refuse to talk to them. This is an enormous trap, especially when you are asking for sanctions. You must have open channels of communication, but, to be clear, in the framework that we have determined. When we say we’re talking, we aren’t talking about everything and we don’t talk on just any terms. The reactions of the U.S. administration and the EU to Hagia Sophia were very clear. The European Union expressly condemned – that was the term they used, “condemned” – Turkey’s action and called for it to be reversed.
N. PANAGIOTOPOULOS: And this phrase bothered Mr. Cavusoglu.
N. DENDIAS: Let me just say that, if I were to comment on something, it would be that I expected a stronger stance from Russia.
T. CHATZIS: On ALPHA radio this morning, Metropolitan Seraphim of Piraeus said that “it was unacceptable on the part of the Patriarch to recognise the outlaws and schismatics in Ukraine as a real church, and now Putin is making us pay for this.” That’s what Metropolitan Seraphim said.
N. DENDIAS: I can’t comment on matters of religion or church administration.
T. CHATZIS: I didn’t ask you to intrude on the Greek Church’s bailiwick. I’m just mentioning it.
N. DENDIAS: I’m not a Metropolitan, so I can’t intrude!
T. CHATZIS: Thank you very much, Minister.
N. DENDIAS: And I thank you very much.
T. CHATZIS: You gave some perspective to our survey when you said, “I would be part of the 75% who are concerned about the Turks.” It’s very significant for the Minister of Foreign Affairs of our country to say this. Again, thank you very much.
July 16, 2020