N. CHATZINIKOLAOU: Let’s welcome the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Nikos Dendias. Good morning, Mr. Dendias.
N. DENDIAS: Good morning, Mr Chatzinikolaou. Good morning to your listeners. I hope everyone’s well.
N. CHATZINIKOLAOU: That’s the greeting of the times. Minister, it seems the coronavirus is damaging more than human and economic health. It is also impacting the health of news coverage, which has largely been restricted to one topic. Nevertheless, there continue to be developments on all fronts, including on our national issues. I would like to ask you how Greek-Turkish relations are developing, given the increase in Turkish aggression and provocations. We saw that they harassed a helicopter that was carrying the Minister of Defence and the Chief of the Defence General Staff. We’ve seen violations of our airspace, even in Evros, which was something we hadn't seen in the past. We see threats over our plans for oil exploration south of Crete. We see what they’re doing in the Cypriot EEZ.
N. DENDIAS: Mr. Chatzinikolaou, what you said is completely accurate. Unfortunately, we are in a climate where Turkey is not responding to the hand of friendship our country permanently extends. In fact, we’re seeing an ongoing escalation on the part of Turkey, and this can’t lead to a positive outcome for us, Turkey or the wider region. You are right about the flyovers in Evros, which were extremely rare, if not unheard of, and in general the whole Turkish stance and rhetoric aren't what you’d expect from friendly allied countries.
Meanwhile, what is our duty in this situation? We have to defend our national interest, our national sovereignty, and not allow Turkey cause an escalation in our relations that would mean militarisation of any dispute. Greece will not allow this. Why? Because we always act in the framework of international law, international legality and European thinking – based on the European Union, to which we belong. So, we won’t follow Turkey down this path, verbally or in terms of our actions.
N. CHATZINIKOLAOU: But the government is coming under fire from some people on what I’ll call ‘the right’. For example, Mr. Velopoulos, the President of Greek Solution, yesterday said that maybe the government should consider downing one of the Turkish planes carrying out these provocative violations.
N. DENDIAS: We will not militarise the crisis with Turkey. That would be a huge mistake. This is a trap Turkey is setting to get Greece: to move past the Law and take actions of this kind. Greece has its sovereign rights. It has the right to exercise these rights. It has the right to defend its airspace, obviously. But I don’t think our disputes with Turkey will be resolved through militarisation. That would cause the situation to deteriorate. But beyond that – and I say this for the record, to make it clear to the other side, because, for better or worse, when a country’s Minister of Foreign Affairs speaks, he isn't addressing just a domestic audience – Greece retains all of its rights to defend its national space. Just so our Turkish neighbours understand that.
N. CHATZINIKOLAOU: One of our listeners is asking why Greece doesn't move to delimit our EEZ with Cyprus.
N. DENDIAS: Our country has every right to start delimitation negotiations with Cyprus. But there is a logical order to our country’s actions that transcends the term of a given government. In fact, this policy has been exercised by a number of governments led by different parties. We are in negotiations with Italy. We are in negotiations with Egypt. There were negotiations with Libya over the past decade, but unfortunately they weren’t completed, and then Libya went back on its understanding with Greece. And there is the issue with Albania, with which an agreement was voided, so we have to hold talks again. And then there is the issue with Cyprus. But Greece has a prerogative in this case and will do it at some point. We’ll start to discuss things with Cyprus as well.
N. CHATZINIKOLAOU: Listeners are also asking if, in your opinion, the time has come to extend territorial waters to 12 nautical miles.
N. DENDIAS: First of all, this is a sovereign right that Greece has the right to exercise in the Ionian, the Aegean and in general wherever it has a presence in the Eastern Mediterranean and on its maritime borders.
Now, as to when and on what terms it will do so, this depends on the state of affairs and the choices of a given government. But it is our right. There is no question of that, and nor does anyone dispute this, with the exception of Turkey, which, for reasons of its own, feels that it can threaten to go to war with another country when that country exercises its sovereign rights. Okay, Turkey’s outlook is without global precedent, but in any event, that’s not something I will comment on.
N. CHATZINIKOLAOU: Mr. Katrougalos, who was with us earlier, said that, regarding this matter, their government drew up a plan they didn’t have time to implement, due to the early elections – they didn’t have time to get it through Parliament – regarding extension to 12 miles in the west, and that, in his opinion, the issue would be more complicated in the east, not just due to Greek-Turkish relations, but mainly because of the problems it would create for free navigation.
N. DENDIAS: What Mr. Katrougalos said is right. The previous government did have a plan to extend territorial waters to 12 miles in the Ionian. And, in the Aegean, there was perception of the peculiarity as regards international navigation. Beyond that, our government has chosen, first of all, to negotiate with Italy on the matter of the exclusive economic zone, on which I don’t think there will be disagreement. And we’re in talks on the same issue with Egypt. I don’t think the country’s political system disagrees on this front either. And Greece reserves the right to extend its territorial waters in the Ionian and the Aegean, when it deems the time is right. But what Mr. Katrougalos said is exactly right. That was what the previous government planned to do.
N. CHATZINIKOLAOU: I want you to bring us up to date on our relations with our northern neighbours. With North Macedonia and Albania, and the prospects right now for their joining the European Union.
N. DENDIAS: Greece has a longstanding policy. Let’s call it the ‘Thessaloniki policy’. This is a policy of extending not only its influence, but also its presence in the Balkans. And ultimately for all of the Balkan countries to join the European family. In this context, Greece has long implemented a very intensive policy. This policy took some hits during the economic crisis. With some exceptions, the Greek banks withdrew from the Balkans. This was very unfortunate for our presence in these areas, but on the other hand, our emergence from the crisis enables Greece to return to its efforts to bolster its presence in these countries. This government is implementing this policy. And successfully, I think. Are things easier with North Macedonia now? Under the present government, to be clear. I don’t know. Because the opposition and opposition ministers in North Macedonia often say things don’t help their relationship with Greece.
It’s more difficult with Albania, because there are unresolved issues. Protection of the Greek national minority’s property rights, for example. But beyond that, Greece, as the most powerful country in the Balkans, will continue to move in that direction. And we believe it is in our interest, in Greek society’s interest, in the national interest and, at the same time, in the region’s interest. And this is a policy that can serve as an example for Turkey. In other words, this policy can show Turkey how a country tries to exert influence in a positive direction – rather than in a negative direction, as Turkey is doing in the Aegean and the Eastern Mediterranean.
N. CHATZINIKOLAOU: One last question, Minister. Is the eurozone’s cohesion jeopardised by the fact that the European north, once again, is not acting ‘courageously’ in response to the economic crisis the coronavirus has caused? And I ask this because I see that Italy and Spain are already reacting.
N. DENDIAS: I’ll give you my personal opinion. I’m not speaking as the Minister of Foreign Affairs. The European Union is perhaps the most important endeavour in human history. A family of states and peoples – who 50 years ago were mourning millions of dead from two wars they had fought with each other – decided to create a common future, a common perspective based on shared values. The European family is not simply a market and it’s not just a joint response to economic problems. It is an outlook on the future. All of these countries, and especially the most powerful ones in this family, have to function as members of a family. If they see the European endeavour in the context of narrow – but strictly narrow, because a broader view is different – economic interests at a given time, they will be making an enormous mistake. And then the eurozone and Europe will find themselves in a major crisis. Because no one should underestimate the recession the coronavirus crisis is going to cause. It is an enormous problem for the European economies and it will become an enormous problem for European societies. The wealthier members of the community of European countries have to make a bold contribution that takes a long view – not just what the balance sheet will look like tomorrow or the next day.
N. CHATZINIKOLAOU: Thank you very much, Minister.
N. DENDIAS: Thank you, too. Take care, Mr. Chatzinikolaou.
N. CHATZINIKOLAOU: Have a good day.
May 6, 2020