V. SKOURIS: Minister, thank you very much for responding to our invitation during this crucial time.
G. KATROUGALOS: Thank you for the invitation.
V. SKOURIS: My first question is this: Can I get a first comment following yesterday’s EU Summit?
G. KATROUGALOS: It was quite positive. One could call it historic; it is the first time the European Union decided to take measures against Turkey, following, of course, the systematic diplomatic effort that had led to Turkey's actions being condemned as illegal and provocative as early as March 2018. As a matter of fact, let me note that the wording uttered by the European Council of the heads of the member states was much harsher than what had been prepared by the General Affairs Council, because it is the first time there is reference to targeted measures that must be taken against Turkey.
V. SKOURIS: By targeted measures, we mean sanctions against people and companies, as far as I can interpret it.
G. KATROUGALOS: People and companies, precisely.
V. SKOURIS: By the European Union itself. Meaning, the sanctions against the crews or products will not just be imposed by Cyprus, but by the European Union as well.
G. KATROUGALOS: Correct.
V. SKOURIS: A company – correct me if I’m wrong – will not be able, for example, to sign contacts with a European Union member state if this is implemented.
G. KATROUGALOS: There is already experience in place from the imposition of similar sanctions in cases where respective measures were taken for other countries, for example, Russia. You are right in saying that the Republic of Cyprus has already issued international arrest warrants against people participating in these illegal actions. On a national level, this action has already produced results. We know that Norwegians, and people of other nationalities, have abandoned the crews; however, obviously, a measure that is not taken by one country, but by the entire European Union, has a much greater reach. And this is just one of the range of measures that may be imposed. There is deliberate flexibility in these measures. They will be reviewed by Ms Mogherini, the head of the EU for foreign affairs, and Mr Hahn. So the measures will be as follows: A very stern warning has already been sent to Turkey. If it does not comply with this warning, these measures will be implemented, and actually, they will be escalating.
V. SKOURIS: A new Summit is not required for these.
G. KATROUGALOS: It depends on the measures. They may potentially need to be customised. However, the political decision has already been made. What remains from now on is for the measures to come to life.
V. SKOURIS: Could these measures include the discussion on the accession prospects? Would it be issues like this or would it just remain an open dialogue between Europe and Ankara?
G. KATROUGALOS: Everything is under review. For example, it could be a freeze on the customs union, the negotiations for the customs union.
V. SKOURIS: Could there also be a freeze?
G. KATROUGALOS: Yes, of the discussions to upgrade the customs union not to terminate all talks.
V. SKOURIS: The customs union is around 140 billion, I think, and it is expected to reach 280 billion.
G. KATROUGALOS: Exactly. As you can understand, this is of great importance for Turkey, at a time when its economy is on a razor’s edge, the sector where every country suffers. Let me stress that we are not ecstatic about Turkey’s isolation, but we wish for a clear warning to be sent, so that Turkey may comply and stop its illegal actions. You are also right in underlining that we do not want all communication channels between the European Union and the Turkey to be severed, because neither the European Union nor we will benefit from something like that. For example, consider the refugee issue. What will happen if the EU-Turkey agreement stops being implemented?
V. SKOURIS: So the whole story is interlinked.
G. KATROUGALOS: There is a two-dimensional systematic effort in place. We had witnessed this even with regard to the exclusively national policy. We are sending a very vociferous message that we have had it up to here. On the other hand, we are keeping the communication channels open, as we had done with the confidence-building measures. Because we do not want the tension to get out of hand, as an accident may indeed occur.
V. SKOURIS: And if one says that when the time comes, all this will prove to be just words? Because a decision is good, but the measures also have to be implemented.
G. KATROUGALOS: But of course, they will be implemented. This is the main and innovative feature of the decision. We have left behind the level of condemnations and have gone on to the level of actions. And let me reiterate: Apart from the direct impact of these measures, there is the wider refection on Turkey’s relations with the major companies of the West which are the main investors of its economy, at a time when the Turkish economy is in recession, its inflation is close to 20% and the lira has lost over 30% of its exchange rate against the dollar. And take note of something important: When the Turkish Ministry of Foreign Affairs came out and accused this agreement as being the Greek directive, accused the European Union of being held hostage by Greece and Cyprus, the lira lost an additional 1.5% almost immediately. Therefore, these measures are in no way spineless and it is precisely for this reason that I think the fact that we got there must be considered a significant diplomatic achievement for Greece and the Republic of Cyprus.
V. SKOURIS: In politics, however, there is always an if, an unforeseen factor; and Erdogan may say, “Great, thanks for the measures, but I will carry on.” What will happen then? Given that Cyprus has no Armed Forces to avert it, how will the situation be tackled? Is there a Plan B?
G. KATROUGALOS: Do you know what Ankara is generally trying to achieve through promoting this revisionist policy? To grey out areas either in the Aegean, with regard to our bilateral relations, or in Cyprus, by challenging the legal consequences and the delineation of the Exclusive Economic Zone of Cyprus. It cannot achieve this when its actions are being condemned as illegal from all directions, not just by the European Union, but also by the United States. Because you cannot grey out, you cannot create a legal dispute when no one supports your actions. So, even if Ankara continues, this will not be a show of strength, but a show of weakness. For internal communication reasons, it will be an effort to overcome its international isolation, but this does not help it at all.
V. SKOURIS: That’s an opinion for the opposite side. The question is what should the Republic of Cyprus and Greece do in such a case, meaning allow them to continue drilling?
G. KATROUGALOS: As I already said, it has nothing to gain. As long as it continues on this path, Turkey is losing. I believe this is crystal clear now.
V. SKOURIS: There’s one more question: What if it launches an operation on the Greek continental shelf, if it sends a second ship here after Cyprus?
G. KATROUGALOS: As I have said time and again, apart from our diplomatic alliances and diplomatic power, we also have the significant deterrent force of the Armed Forces. Turkey is aware of this; the necessary messages have been conveyed in the manner they should have been. And precisely because no one is that insane so as to risk a heated incident in the Aegean, I am certain that this possibility will not arise.
V. SKOURIS: What do you mean when you say that we have a significant deterrent force?
G. KATROUGALOS: That we have Armed Forces.
V. SKOURIS: Clearly we have Armed Forces.
G. KATROUGALOS: Armed Forces that ensure a balance of power in the Aegean.
V. SKOURIS: A balance that will be shifted by the S-400s, if Ankara eventually acquires them, Mr Minister.
G. KATROUGALOS: Firstly, well done on broaching the issue, because with the S-400s, Turkey may be faced with a second wave of sanctions.
V. SKOURIS: You’re right. By the way, could this, meaning sanctions by Europe and sanctions by the USA, make the situation more uncontrollable and tougher for us?
G. KATROUGALOS: This is also true, and precisely for this reason it is important that we establish our presence as a pole of stability, an exporter of stability to be exact. A gap is created when a large regional power such as Turkey adopts this ambiguous stance. We can cover this gap at the moment. And it is precisely for this reason that our international relations vis-a-vis the USA are upgraded. Why are we currently at the best possible point in our relations with this superpower? Because we stopped being a client state, because there is an alignment of interests that stems from ensuring political stability and peace in the area, and everyone, not just the USA, Israel and Egypt, but all major powers in the area have recognised that we are a country that can ensure peace and stability with its presence.
V. SKOURIS: Let’s get back to the S-400s. Are they shifting the balance in the Aegean?
G. KATROUGALOS: We will never and for no reason allow the balance of power in the Aegean to be shifted.
V. SKOURIS: This a statement/warning. But I repeat, are the S-400s shifting the balance?
G. KATROUGALOS: This concerns two artillery batteries. On their own, they cannot shift the balance of power and, in all events, I repeat that our country – with sacrifice, great sacrifice in the past and the future – will ensure the full deterrence force of our Armed Forces.
V. SKOURIS: This means new armaments, if I understand correctly.
G. KATROUGALOS: We are forced, without wanting to, to get involved in an arms race so as to ensure the combat effectiveness of our Armed Forces. However, first of all, do not consider the installation of S-400s, especially in our region, a given. Because they may be installed in another region and have no impact.
V. SKOURIS: Do you believe this is possible?
G. KATROUGALOS: It is one of the contingencies.
V. SKOURIS: I said “if”, for the same reasons as the ones you mentioned. However, if – I’ll also say – Erdogan has his way and gets both the S-400s and the F-35s, this is not happening, but...
G. KATROUGALOS: You may be well informed, but let’s explain it for our audience. Balance of power is not just in numbers. For example, although we currently have fewer aircraft than Turkey, we are able to have more exit points in the Aegean. Meaning that our Air Force can have more planes in the air if necessary than Turkey. Precisely because we have more quality elements, more pilots, a better opportunity to respond to this challenge, while the other side, due to the major consequences of the coup against its Armed Forces, is not at the height of its abilities at the moment.
V. SKOURIS: The question, however, was that if they were both together, S-400s and F-35s, I imagine there would be an overturn to the correlation of forces.
G. KATROUGALOS: This would constitute an overturn to the correlation of forces, which we would naturally address. We will never succumb to a negative balance of power for us.
V. SKOURIS: Minister, I would now like to ask you this: We got into a conversation about the purchase of F-35s. I have witnessed statements from the USA and from Greeks from the Ministry of Defence.
G. KATROUGALOS: The F-35s are considered an advancement in the Air Force sector.
V. SKOURIS: They are also overly expensive.
G. KATROUGALOS: A new generation, expensive and untested. We do not want to exclude our Armed Forces from a similar opportunity. We have told the USA that we would be interested, provided our country’s financial capabilities allow it.
V. SKOURIS: The discussion about the frigates? We heard about it, the Ministers of Defence here have confirmed it, it exists. Is it being concluded?
G. KATROUGALOS: As I told you, we are taking every measure to ensure the complete combat effectiveness of our Armed Forces on land, in the air and in the sea.
V. SKOURIS: “In the event of a heated incident, we will be on our own,” said the Minister of Defence. Will we be on our own?
G. KATROUGALOS: With the Minister of Defence, we enjoy the best collaboration ever between a Minister of Foreign Affairs and a Minister of Defence in Greece. I highly appreciate his skills and character, and we share the same opinions. My take on what he said is that even on our own, we are prepared to face any challenge from Turkey. But, obviously, we are making sure to also forge the necessary diplomatic alliances so that we are not on our own.
V. SKOURIS: Does the statement that “If a Turk steps on an islet, we will sink it” still apply?
G. KATROUGALOS: Hold on a minute. Why do we have Armed Forces? To defend the sovereignty of our country. It is as if you are asking me whether we would defend Thessaloniki if foreign forces landed on it. Of course we would. The Armed Forces defend every inch of the Greek territory. However, we should not be stating this in a manner that could create the impression that this is something imminent. I have said on many occasions, and we have also discussed it together, that I believe the intention of the other side is not to provoke a heated incident in the Aegean. Because they know that this would create a situation that no one wants. Consequently, we are prepared for everything and are on alert, without growing complacent. But the Greek citizens should feel safe. At the moment, there is no threat of war in the Aegean.
V. SKOURIS: At this point, because you also mentioned it, Minister, and because as a journalist I ought to ask questions, our radio station and I personally have never at any point invested...
G. KATROUGALOS: Because you are a responsible person.
V. SKOURIS: We have never invested in increasing our ratings, I have said it many times.
G. KATROUGALOS: That’s actually how it is.
V. SKOURIS: Sometimes – and before this crisis, when there were no listeners and the TV news bulletins had no viewer ratings – you’d think that there was a war with Turkey. We have never done this and will never do it.
G. KATROUGALOS: You are right, and more so us, who are at the wheel of the country right now. We have been accused by New Democracy of creating drama.
V. SKOURIS: That’s where I was getting. It was an introduction to get there.
G. KATROUGALOS: Listen, at times they accuse us of embellishment and appeasement, when we talk about confidence-building measures for example, and at times they accuse us of creating drama. We never used these very serious matters for promotional purposes, and we actually stayed a notch below in terms of expressions we could have used. Let me remind you, for example, that it was President Anastasiades who used the term “invasion”.
V. SKOURIS: “Sea invasion”.
G. KATROUGALOS: This expression is not inaccurate and I am obviously not criticising the President of the Republic of Cyprus. He is right. What I am saying is that not only did we not create drama, but one could say that our communication tactics were a notch below.
V. SKOURIS: We are holding on to this. I imagine it emerged from the discussion on the confidence-building measures, which was concluded yesterday in Turkey. What are the conclusions from such discussions? Will there be a... But what am I saying? The Yilmaz-Papoulias agreement applies.
G. KATROUGALOS: That was exactly the object of the discussion. It was not to find new confidence-building measures. It was to accept the approximately 29 measures, if you add up the ones in the Memorandum and in later agreements. Why do we keep insisting on keeping this communication channel open? I said it before: Because the other side does not want to instigate a heated incident in the Aegean either. However, as tensions rise, as the presence of ships rises or as the violations of our national air space increase...
V. SKOURIS: And they are more upgraded some times.
G. KATROUGALOS: And when they become more upgraded, the risk of an accident is indeed there. We must prevent this accident by relieving, by defusing the tension.
V. SKOURIS: Were the talks positive? Did you have time to be briefed or should we wait for the news story?
G. KATROUGALOS: They were carried out in a positive climate. As a matter of fact, the Minister of Defence, Mr Akar, received the teams himself.
V. SKOURIS: And in conclusion, the talks?
G. KATROUGALOS: Hold on a minute, so we do not give out the wrong impression. We are used to unpredictable behaviour from Turkey. We cannot guarantee that these measures will result in de-escalation. As a government, however, we ought to do what we can.
V. SKOURIS: We have another three-four minutes, but we can get a few questions in and continue them after the break. What’s your opinion on the move in Varosha – the statement, as there has been no move just yet, and to be fair, we do not know if it will eventually happen.
G. KATROUGALOS: It was a distraction. In a similar question I had described it as a “firework”. This does not mean that it should be underestimated. It is a telling that the other side is exercising policy that is mainly targeted at domestic audiences. Contrary to how foreign policy should be exercised. However, this does not mean that we should underestimate the consequences, even of fireworks such as this one, because they may muddle the situation.
V. SKOURIS: Because we are now seeing – and let’s get back to this – the overall political order of Turkey. We saw the statements made by the leader of the opposition yesterday before a parliamentary group. We posted them on the show “Power Games”, with him telling Erdogan “The Greeks took 16 islands from us. Let’s get them back.” Meaning that all of a sudden, the Greek issue is becoming an item of interior political controversy, a fact that is making the problem even harder to resolve.
G. KATROUGALOS: That’s exactly right. You are right in pointing out that the stance of the Kemal-influenced opposition has even more nationalistic features than those of the Turkish government. And therein lies the trap that our neighbours may fall in, exercising foreign policy on interior policy terms.
V. SKOURIS: In your opinion, can the partition solution – because I am gradually seeing that before this crisis erupts, when the talks with the envoy of the UN Secretary-General for the Cyprus issue were under way, Turkey was saying, “Let’s wait for this round and if not, we’ll table additional solutions, other than the bizonal one.” Does a partition frighten you?
G. KATROUGALOS: Nothing frightens us, but it is a possibility.
V. SKOURIS: Is the partition a possibility?
G. KATROUGALOS: It is a possibility that Greece and the Republic of Cyprus will never permit it to become a reality. Because what would that mean? It would mean legalising the invasion, legalising the occupation, legalising this attack against the international law that was Turkey’s invasion in Cyprus in 1974. The only solution for Cyprus is a solution of international legality, in line with the UN resolutions.
V. SKOURIS: And given that in reality, a partition cannot officially happen without the consent of Nicosia and the guarantor powers, I imagine it will never happen; it will never be accepted as a solution.
G. KATROUGALOS: Exactly.
V. SKOURIS: I think it is a clear, a crystal-clear solution, which honours you, in my opinion.
G. KATROUGALOS: Partition is not a solution and I do not think there is a responsible political power in Greece or Cyprus that would strive for it.
V. SKOURIS: We’ll be back after the commercials with your opinion on the possibility of annexing the occupied parts and what that would mean. Let’s go to commercials and we’ll be back.
[…]
V. SKOURIS: We’re back, ladies and gentlemen. Giorgos Katrougalos, the Minister of Foreign Affairs is in the studio with us. If it weren’t for the tension these days, we would only introduce him as candidate MP for the Northern Sector of the 2nd Electoral Region of Athens.
G. KATROUGALOS: As you can understand, the last thing I can engage in is an election campaign.
V. SKOURIS: Yes, you haven’t been anywhere.
G. KATROUGALOS: I am where I should be, because that is where serious issues are at stake at the moment.
V. SKOURIS: As Angeliki Spanou was telling me when we were still doing the show together – before the problem and we are hoping that seeing she is doing so well she may be back in September and we’ll be back together again. So she was saying that [Greek actor] Konstantaras said that politicians are like women, they both look after their regions [the Greek word perifereia means both region and waistline].
G. KATROUGALOS: This line is from the famous movie where he played politician Mavrogialouros, but this is the main difference in the way I perceive politics. So that you know, I have always engaged in politics as an active citizen, not as a professional politician.
V. SKOURIS: That is true. Now let me ask you about what we said earlier: Does the possibility of annexation concern you? Do you believe that Ankara may take such a risk and annex the occupied parts?
G. KATROUGALOS: That would be a blatant violation of international legality, so far beyond the limits, even the limits that Turkey has respected todate, that I do not consider it a possibility.
V. SKOURIS: Yes, but shouldn’t something be done with the Cyprus issue?
G. KATROUGALOS: In the right direction, not the wrong one.
V. SKOURIS: In the right, but some are saying let the problem remain unresolved, remain as such. There are tensions at the moment, it cannot be discussed, so...
G. KATROUGALOS: Those arguing the issue should remain unresolved are essentially accepting the partition alternative as a de facto prospect, not as an active alternative, even if they do not officially accept it.
V. SKOURIS: So under what circumstances would Greece accept a dialogue on the Cyprus issue again?
G. KATROUGALOS: I do not even have to answer the question hypothetically, because we have given concrete indications both in Geneva and in Crans-Montana. What did we accomplish? We accomplished a discussion on the Cyprus issue in principle, meaning as an international legality problem, and not just as a bilateral dispute.
V. SKOURIS: That's true. Especially Mr Kotzias and yourself were very intense and it was the first time, and even the Cypriots said it. The Minister of Foreign Affairs, Mr Christodoulides told us right here.
G. KATROUGALOS: With whom I must admit I enjoy the best possible cooperation. We speak almost daily, both about the Cyprus issue and about the recent provocations.
V. SKOURIS: He said it was the only time that Athens tabled an issue with such intensity and actually succeeded; it is an acquis of Crans-Montana.
G. KATROUGALOS: Exactly. So, answering your question, talks must commence again, not under a state of blackmail, not with a gun to the head, but they must commence. And actually follow on from the point of the Crans-Montana and the Geneva acquis, meaning commence with the first item on the agenda being the immediate abolition of the unacceptable colonial-era system of guarantees. And, obviously, a time line for the withdrawal of the Turkish occupation forces.
V. SKOURIS: What is your opinion? Is it better for Turkey to be in the West, to find a solution and not to break ties with the USA or, as some are saying, let it leave in the opposite direction, so Greece may be upgraded and you can become chief, as they say.
G. KATROUGALOS: If this question were to be translated into terms understood by the people, then the answer would immediately become obvious. It is as if you are asking if we prefer a hostile or a friendly Turkey. Obviously we want a Turkey we can hold discussions with. That’s precisely the reason why we are in favour of its European prospects.
V. SKOURIS: We are insisting on the European prospects.
G. KATROUGALOS: We are insisting, but under the conditions that apply for any country hoping to become a member of the European Union at some stage. And there are two types of conditions. On the one hand, the need to respect what we call the European acquis, mainly human rights and rule of law, but on the other hand, good neighbourly relations. This is exactly why for example – I am jumping into another subject, just as important – through the Prespa Agreement, we succeeded in directly linking the European prospects of the neighbouring country with their responsibility to uphold the agreement to the letter. In short, this is what I am trying to say: When attempting to accede into the European Union, each country, big or small, also has a duty to comply with a set of obligations. It is for this reason precisely that one can believe they have an influence in the decisions and the neighbourly relations with the countries of the European Union.
June 21, 2019