F. MAVRAGANI: Let us welcome Mr Dendias. Good morning, Minister.
N. DENDIAS: Good morning to you and to all your viewers.
F. MAVRAGANI: From Washington DC to Cairo, and from Cairo to Brussels. Thousands of kilometres travelled in just three or four days! Please tell us the result of all these diplomatic contacts, to touch upon what Michalis Ignatiou brought up, I don't know if you heard him.
N. DENDIAS: I heard the end of his statement, and would like to note that Mr Ignatiou asked President Trump an excellent question during Mr Mitsotakis’ visit to the White House regarding how Turkey is behaving itself, and I would just like to underline this fact.
Obviously, we are not a travel agency or excursion planners. All the foregoing took place within a framework, which is the creation of understanding between a group of states that share a common view on how specific issues should be handled in the region.
I am primarily referring to important countries in the Gulf, such as Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates, to Arab countries of the Mediterranean, such as Egypt, Jordan, Israel and, beyond that, Greece, Cyprus, France and Italy. All this activity has created a community of understanding, which Prime Minister Kyriakos Mitsotakis presented to President Trump.
I should tell you that not only was there no debate but, in fact, there was understanding of the view taken by the Greek side regarding matters in the broader region or, if you prefer, the fact that the way Turkey is behaving in the broader region does not help ensure security and stability in the region, but acts as a destabilising factor.
F. MAVRAGANI: Regarding your last point, Minister, Michalis Ignatiou told us that behind closed doors — and you can confirm this because you were behind those doors...
N. DENDIAS: Because I was behind those doors.
F. MAVRAGANI: Precisely, because you were there, so you must know more than us. Secretary of State Pompeo took an initiative at the urging of President Trump. Could you explain precisely how this occurred?
N. DENDIAS: As the United States has not announced an initiative — and has not communicated it as such — I cannot discuss the matter at length. What I can tell you is, any effort to broaden understanding is welcome in the region. We engage in dialogue with Turkey. Yesterday, the Secretary General, Mr Demiris, was in Ankara and held talks with his counterpart, and I must tell you that the atmosphere of the meeting was not bad. In other words, I expected that he would face a much more acrimonious attitude on the part of Turkey, and according to the first reports I received, as I was in Brussels, the Turkish views put forward appeared to be reasonable. We will now process these views and discuss them.
F. MAVRAGANI: Let us examine this piece by piece, if I can insist, with your permission.
N. DENDIAS: Anything that leads to de-escalation is welcome. Please, you have to do your job, and I have to do mine.
F. MAVRAGANI: How would you remark on Mr Pompeo's initiative, how would you assess it, what should we expect?
N. DENDIAS: I wouldn't put a name on it. Names, you know, create burdens and burdens create difficulties, where each side takes on a role, so it would be best to let things be a little... In my opinion, any effort towards mutual understanding in the region is positive, and Greece has acknowledged in the clearest possible manner the important role that the United States can play in the region. And how has it done this? By signing the MDCA, the mutual defense cooperation agreement. We consider America to be a friend and ally.
We have accomplished the enlargement of its footprint in our country and, in our view, have achieved the very significant presence of the United States in Alexandroupoli. We are pleased that the United States understands the special characteristics of the region, grasps the importance of Greece’s role and is willing to play a role in establishing mutual understanding in the region.
They have naval ships in the region, as well as a large submarine in Souda. What I said is that there is another American ship, at least yesterday or today, in Greek territorial waters. Consequently, the Americans have a role to play. Insofar as they want to do so and they grasp it, and insofar as the Prime Minister explained to them how Greece views matters, any presence on their part is welcome within the framework we have discussed.
F. MAVRAGANI: Before focusing on the defence agreement and the programme and the reactions that have been caused by Syriza, I would like to continue discussing this meeting. Please, tell me the result of this meeting and how you would comment on the fact that Syriza considers it a fiasco.
N. DENDIAS: You know, when it comes to foreign policy issues, I don’t buy into party politics, black and white, good and bad, whatever suits our own domestic party politics. We shouldn't do this, and, in my view, this statement was a mistake on the part of Syriza.
It is obviously not a fiasco. It is part of a plan, so obviously there can be no talk of a fiasco. Mr Mitsotakis’ visit is part of a plan to present the views of the Greek side and Greek foreign policy, as it has been established and is being followed, to President Trump and the leadership team that was present.
President Trump did not receive Mr Mitsotakis alone, but was joined by Vice-President Pence, by Secretary of State Pompeo — who can now be called a friend, as we have met with him so many times — and by the new National Security Advisor, Mr O’Brien. As you might recall, when I visited the White House, I met with Mr Bolton, the former National Security Advisor.
F. MAVRAGANI: Yes, we remember.
N. DENDIAS: Our personal contact with Mr O’Brien is important, because we know who he is, we have spoken with him. The Prime Minister told them our opinion, explained how we view things, and we reached an understanding on this matter and there were positive statements to be made about the economy and a wider climate.
Now, may I be frank? If the United States was opposed to us, the statements regarding the economy would never have been made. Have you ever seen President Trump or Mike Pompeo make positive statements regarding the Iranian economy, for example? So, this was an absolutely successful visit. It was absolutely successful because it achieved its objective, which was none other than clear communication with the US side, and this is abundantly clear.
F. MAVRAGANI: As you mentioned Iran, Minister, during yesterday's news report, Christos Tsigouris told us that the Israeli Embassy issued a démarche regarding the Greek Prime Minister’s stance concerning the murder of Soleimani. Can you confirm this?
N. DENDIAS: You mean the Iranian side.
F. MAVRAGANI: The Iranian side, yes.
N. DENDIAS: Yes, there was a protest from the Iranian side. I have not seen the text and I believe I will shortly be speaking with the Iranian Minister of Foreign Affairs over the telephone, as he has asked to speak with me. I know Mr Zarif, we met in New York, he is a highly intelligent man, he understands the broader position adopted by Greece, we understand why Iran wants to raise the issues from its perspective at this point in time. We will see what he has to say. I will be pleased to listen to him.
F. MAVRAGANI: So, you confirm that there was a démarche and a reaction. It remains to be seen what he’ll tell you and what you'll discuss over the course of the day.
N. DENDIAS: Ms Mavragani, we talk to everyone. Greece, as a country, is not sealed off, let us be clear about this. Our region, our role, our history and our tradition require that we talk to everyone, and we hold a view on every matter, based on the law, which we always take into consideration, and our national interests.
F. MAVRAGANI: Minister, you made all these contacts, there is an agreement between Turkey and Libya. Please tell us, are we close to the red line? Because yet again the Turks are wondering why Kastelorizo should have an EEZ — and we can see the relevant map. They are wondering why a small island should have an EEZ covering 40,000 square kilometres. I would like your comment on this and whether you fear that we are close to a red line.
N. DENDIAS: Let me answer your question. I don't want to create a tense atmosphere. Greece, as a country, respects International Law and does not want to exclude Turkey from anything to which Turkey is entitled, nor does it want to take away the legitimate rights of Turkey. Greece merely wants to defend and retain its own legitimate rights. This is the role of every Greek government under the Constitution, and that is what every Greek government has sought to achieve in the way it saw fit. That is what the Mitsotakis government is doing, in our view, in the best possible way, given the circumstances we are facing.
Beyond that, Turkey has invented a new legal contention that islands do not have a continental shelf or an Exclusive Economic Zone. This is not confirmed by International Law, by the jurisprudence of the International Court of Justice in the Hague, or by the jurisprudence of the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea in Hamburg. Turkey has identified specific cases that concern completely uninhabited islands, rocks, and is invoking these cases. Our answer to Turkey? “Tell us your view so that we can determine whether we can reach an understanding, and, if we cannot, there are international judicial bodies to address.”
We say our dispute is over one thing: the continental shelf and, indirectly, the Exclusive Economic Zone as well.
F. MAVRAGANI: So, as regards the continental shelf and the EEZ, Minister, could we appeal to the Hague?
N. DENDIAS: Yes, but we must agree under which parameters... All these matters do not concern only Turkey – we could resort to an international judicial body with any country.
F. MAVRAGANI: Just to raise an objection, Minister, since we are not the ones staking a claim – the other parties are – could we ultimately lose if they put it all on the table?
N. DENDIAS: Thank you for pointing this out. The matter at hand is which issues should rationally be raised. In other words, if Turkey were to say that my house in Dendiatika on the island of Paxos belongs to Turkey, excuse me if I do not feel like appealing to a judicial body to discuss this, as my late great-grandmother built it.
F. MAVRAGANI: So you're saying that the two specific issues that we agree to discuss — and just these two — have been set in advance?
N. DENDIAS: You know, I do not take a hard line...
F. MAVRAGANI: Hypothetically speaking.
N. DENDIAS: What I am saying is simply that Turkey should come with a serious attitude, in the context of the political dialogue that was re-initiated yesterday in Ankara, provided it goes well, so we can examine whether we can make our disagreements subject to a special agreement and, if we cannot resolve them on our own — it is my hope that we can resolve them on our own, I have known Mr Çavuşoğlu for 17 years, we can reach solutions, so if we can resolve them on our own, I would prefer this a thousand times over — let us appeal to someone else to resolve them for us. In any event, tensions and unilateral actions and signing of neo-Surrealist agreements with countries with which they share no common borders, let alone sea borders, such as the recent agreements between Turkey and Libya, do not help matters in the region, Ms Mavragani. And, if I may, they do not help Turkey's case, in fact. I take the view, as does the Mitsotakis government, that we want a thriving Turkey beside us, a modern Turkey, a Turkey that culturally approaches Western standards, a Turkey with which we can reach an understanding, engage in business and commerce. We enjoy very good relations with the Turkish people.
F. MAVRAGANI: I hope so.
N. DENDIAS: Is there any reason for these things to be taking place?
F. MAVRAGANI: I don’t think anyone would disagree with you on this point, but as this unreasonable agreement, as you say, is currently in place, I would like to ask you the following question, given all your meetings in recent days.
N. DENDIAS: I called it a far worse name: non-existent, neo-Surrealist. If only it were just unreasonable!
F. MAVRAGANI: This gives rise to an oxymoron, Minister. On one hand, the European Union condemns this agreement and you had contacts yesterday, from what I am reading, with the Special Representative of the UN Secretary General on the margins of the Council. However, the issue is that, on the one hand, the European Union is condemning the memorandum but, on the other, it has recognised the Government of National Accord in Tripoli. So, what are we hoping for, in diplomatic terms? How will this agreement be rescinded?
N. DENDIAS: Things happened in the reverse order. The Government in Tripoli has been recognised according to a specific time-frame which has now lapsed, and please make a note of that. In any event, we do not wish to add to this chaotic situation. The UN Security Council has done this, but with a clear mandate in mind. The Government of National Accord in Tripoli went beyond its mandate, as set by the UN Security Council and the relevant resolutions of the UN Security Council.
F. MAVRAGANI: So, what will we do now?
N. DENDIAS: If memory serves, this is resolution 2259. So, it has no authorisation to sign the document it signed, which, by the way, was expressly and unanimously rescinded by the Libyan House of Representatives, which has also been recognised by the UN Security Council. The UN Security Council recognises three entities: the administration in Tripoli, headed by Mr Sarraj, the Libyan House of Representatives — and its President recently visited us, if you recall — and the Libyan National Army, which is headed by Field Marshal Haftar. As you know, two of the three actors dismiss the foregoing as non-existent, as harmful to the interests of Libya and treasonous.
F. MAVRAGANI: The point is, Minister, that Erdogan is moving forward and, in fact, announced yesterday that “we will send in the Navy, the Air Force, the Army” and I think that no one to date has stopped all these...
N. DENDIAS: First of all, President Erdogan has not done much on land. It’s not that there is no Turkish military personnel in Tripoli, because there is. But he has not sent any regular army unit, let us be honest.
However, President Erdogan and Turkey can announce whatever they like, Ms Mavragani. They might choose to say that they will hold a military parade in Tripoli. However, all this further exposes Turkey and does not help it. Anything that further characterises Turkey as rogue state does not help Turkey.
It is my friendly view — and I have no reason to give Turkey advice, Turkey does not need my advice — that these actions do not help Turkey's case in general, nor would they help any country operating this way. The impression being formed in the region that an effort is underway to re-establish the Ottoman Empire is not helping, you know. The Arabs don't put up with such things.
F. MAVRAGANI: Minister, as we have to head to a break, and perhaps Michalis would like to ask something, I would like to briefly ask for a comment on Syriza's position to suspend the defence cooperation programme.
N. DENDIAS: I do not think Syriza will persist in this attitude. I believe the MDCA is an agreement that we concluded on the basis of prior discussions which, if you like, were informal but did take place. We are all aware of them. I think I mentioned this earlier, but I do not want to lecture anyone. I believe national issues — and at the moment an American presence in the country is a national issue— go beyond the scope of party politics. I am certain that Syriza will rise to the occasion as it understands and judges matters.
F. MAVRAGANI: Michalis, would you like to ask anything in closing, as we are being asked to go to break?
M. IGNATIOU: No, I believe the Minister covered everything.
N. DENDIAS: Mr Ignatiou, how are you? Good afternoon, I apologise, I didn't know you were listening. It is so nice to hear your voice. I mentioned your excellent question earlier.
M. IGNATIOU: Thank you very much.
F. MAVRAGANI: Thank you very much, Minister.
N. DENDIAS: Goodbye, have a nice day and a nice weekend.
F. MAVRAGANI: You too.
January 11, 2020