ZEIT ONLINE: How serious is the prospect of a real military conflict with Türkiye over the Greek islands, Mr. Varvitsiotis?
M. Varvitsiotis: Türkiye’s aggressive rhetoric towards our country has escalated significantly, as have its territorial claims in the Aegean Sea. Until 2020, it had a claim to extend its own EEZ in the Mediterranean and thus acquire the right to exploit the subsoil and the right to fishing. As of 2021, however, Türkiye has often referred to Mavi Vatan, that is the so-called "Blue Homeland" or "Maritime Homeland". You are aware that the government in Ankara claims that it owns half of the Aegean Sea and that many of our islands belong to it and not to Greece. These views, however, are historically inaccurate and unacceptable.
ZEIT ONLINE: One of Türkiye's arguments is that, according to international treaties, there should not be a Greek military presence on certain islands off its coast. What do you think of that?
M. Varvitsiotis: Our military is, of course, stationed on those islands. It could not be any other way. You should take into account that we are facing the Turkish armed forces, that is over half a million soldiers, on the opposite shore. Despite all the other operations the Turkish military has been engaged in recent years -- whether in Iraq, Syria or elsewhere-, this number remains very high.
ZEIT ONLINE: What explanation do you give for the fact that Türkiye has changed its rhetoric in such a way?
M. Varvitsiotis: Undoubtedly, the political future of President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, who will seek re-election next year, plays an important role. Speaking out against Greece is a common tactic of many Turkish politicians. It is also worth noting that modern Türkiye wishes to reshape the legacy of the Turkish state’s founder, Kemal Atatürk. This includes, as I recall, the 1923 Treaty of Lausanne, which defined Türkiye's existing borders. Unfortunately, the current government in Ankara seems to believe that Türkiye cannot exist within its existing borders. Erdoğan, on the other hand, is holding the entire Turkish politics hostage with this revisionist agenda.
ZEIT ONLINE: Is this a piece of domestic political theater or a real threat?
M. Varvitsiotis: Let's not forget that Türkiye has conducted a number of military operations in the recent past. It now controls a zone of about 100 km in the north Syria. In the Kurdish regions of northern Iraq, it has waged a highly intensive operation and has taken control of several areas. Türkiye conducts military operations in Somalia, Libya and the Caucasus. Let me also remind you that, among other things, they are building an aircraft carrier. It is not, however, intended for operations in the Mediterranean, but rather serves as clear display of military power. These actions are a legitimate cause for concern both at the EU and NATO level.
ZEIT ONLINE: What would have to happen for this dispute with Türkiye to turn into a real war with Greece?
M. Varvitsiotis: It is entirely dependent on Türkiye’s conduct. We do not want this war. We will not do anything that could cause a war. But you can be sure that we will defend ourselves, whenever and if we deem it necessary. Most significantly, we will not give in to any unreasonable Turkish demands. Personally speaking, I will not seek permission from Türkiye to visit one of our islands. It may sound like a joke, but it is true. There are many complaints from Turkish officials because Greek ministers travel to Greek islands near our eastern border. They even went so far as to accuse the President of the Hellenic Republic, Ms. Katerina Sakellaropoulou, of this. It is absolutely absurd and unacceptable.
ZEIT ONLINE: How do you react to this behaviour?
M. Varvitsiotis: First of all, we are trying to draw the attention of foreign governments and attract the interest of international public opinion to Ankara’s provocative conduct, which is inconsistent with good neighborly relations. Furthermore, we have boosted expenditure on armaments this year; the budget will amount to nearly 4% of our GDP. Nevertheless, we are trying to maintain our channels of communication with Türkiye open. I remind you that three months ago the Greek Prime Minister, Kyriakos Mitsotakis, met with President Erdoğan, but a few weeks later Erdoğan said he would not speak with him again. We are not pursuing the tactic of tension, but we continue to keep the door open to dialogue, without, however, undermining our territorial sovereignty.
ZEIT ONLINE: Can you cave in to Türkiye’s demand that the Greek army withdraw from the islands?
M. Varvitsiotis: No. I’d like to remind you of a saying that goes, “I will not kill my dog just because the neighbor would just like to step on the grass of my garden”.
ZEIT ONLINE: Greece is trying to prevent Türkiye from acquiring new F16 fighters from the US. Türkiye was given that prospect, though, in the negotiations for Sweden and Finland's NATO membership. What do you think of that?
M. Varvitsiotis: We did not try to prevent it. It was the US Congress that objected to it, because Türkiye had purchased advanced weapons systems from Russia. The Congress’ members were in favour of halting US arms supply as long as Türkiye would not disable the Russian S400 anti-missile system. However, we also communicate with Germany, Italy and Spain, pointing out that weapons produced by friendly states should not be directed against an ally country, such as Greece.
ZEIT ONLINE: And how are these states, especially the German federal government, reacting?
M. Varvitsiotis: We still haven't seen any change, although we are calling for it. But of course, we will continue to inform the German public opinion about this issue.
ZEIT ONLINE: What weapons is Germany currently supplying Türkiye with?
M. Varvitsiotis: It's mainly ThyssenKrupp’s highly advanced submarines. It is a model similar to the one our own navy possess, which we purchased twenty years ago. Greece was then the first country to order these submarines and so it co-financed their development, even before the German navy did. Now there are significant delays in the delivery of these submarines to Türkiye, and none has yet been delivered for use.
ZEIT ONLINE: What do you expect from the Federal Government in this case?
M. Varvitsiotis: We are asking it to reconsider its stance on the procurement of German weapons systems. We have already asked the Government of former Chancellor Angela Merkel and we are reiterating this request today to the current Federal Government. The answer, however, is that this trade agreement had already been reached before the recent escalation in Greek-Turkish relations.
ZEIT ONLINE: The Eastern Mediterranean gas deposits constitute a major source of contention with Türkiye. Greece has formed a format with Cyprus, Israel and Egypt to extract these fields. Shouldn't Türkiye have been part of this club from the beginning?
M. Varvitsiotis: First of all, we have to point out that the gas deposits were found in the other countries’ EEZs, not Türkiye’s. To this we should add that Türkiye has not concluded an agreement with any of its Mediterranean neighbours on the exact boundaries of its EEZs. This demonstrates that its claims are exaggerated.
ZEIT ONLINE: How significant can these deposits be in the current gas crisis?
M. Varvitsiotis: They are quite significant. We should exploit the deposits in our neighbourhood. But I really don't understand why Cyprus, Israel and Egypt should sit at the table with Türkiye and consult when not a single cubic meter of these fields is within Türkiye's EEZ?
ZEIT ONLINE: What then is the solution to this dispute?
M. Varvitsiotis: An international tribunal could quickly clarify such an issue and define the EEZs. I firmly believe that when one disagrees with one's neighbour, one has recourse to justice. It does not start a war.
ZEIT ONLINE. What is Greece’s stance on this?
M. Varvitsiotis: We do not participate in the exploitation of the gas fields south of Cyprus because we don't own them. The issue is to implement the EastMed pipeline project, which could run from the area south of Cyprus through Crete and Greece to Italy. It would be the safest and most reliable route for transporting gas to Europe. Why do we believe that Türkiye should not be included in this cooperation format? Because we believe that it does not want to act as a transport country, but as an intermediary. The second reason is that we should think twice before we give more power to a revisionist and authoritarian government, following what we experienced with Russia.
ZEIT ONLINE: Greece has put up resistance in the EU against extending sanctions against Russia on the transport of Russian oil by sea. Greek shipowners' tankers would suffer greatly. Isn’t it time to put an end to this resistance?
M. Varvitsiotis: Accepting the European Commission's proposal would have been a great gift to Chinese shipping. The G7 countries did not agree to this proposal either. Having such a strong merchant shipping fleet is a great advantage for Europe. Greek shipping companies make up the bulk of it, with a share of about 60%. We should make use of this strength. Relying solely on China for transport in global trade could be dangerous. We have also been observing for some time now that international supply chains have been severely disrupted by the national restrictive measures taken by China, in particular due to the lockdowns.
ZEIT ONLINE: But eventually Russian oil imports will stop. This has become clear to everyone.
M. Varvitsiotis: We are not just talking about imports to Europe, but also about exports from Russia to third countries that are carried out by European and Greek ships. We would bring the global economy to a halt if we stopped oil transport. It would lead to a global economic crisis.
ZEIT ONLINE: In your opinion can’t there be some sanctions against Greek shipping?
M. Varvitsiotis: It would be detrimental to our European interests. The only way out would be to impose a global embargo on the transport of Russian oil in general. But this process would have to involve as many states beyond the EU as possible. But this would have even more serious consequences for the global economy.
July 13, 2022