JOURNALIST: Ladies and gentlemen, good evening. This is Apostolos Mangiriadis and you’re watching the "Epilogos" TV show.
Tonight, we have the pleasure and honor to host the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Mr. Nikos Dendias, or rather, to put it more correctly, we are hosted at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs by the Minister, Mr. Nikos Dendias.
Minister, good evening.
N. DENDIAS: Good evening, Mr. Mangiriadis. Welcome.
JOURNALIST: Thank you very much for accepting our invitation to talk with you tonight on our show. Let's take stock of your four years at the helm of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. I’d like us to start our discussion tonight with a brief assessment, going back to 2019, when the Prime Minister proposed that you take over the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.
I'd like to ask if it occurred to you at the time that we would have to cope with a pandemic, an escalation of our relations with Türkiye, and the return of war to Europe in the next four years. Could all that has happened in the last four years have been imagined or even predicted?
N. DENDIAS: No, Mr. Mangiriadis. The truth is that what has happened could not have been anticipated. The positive things could not have been anticipated either. Because we have experienced great successes over these years as well.
The two Exclusive Economic Zone Agreements. The agreement in principle with Albania, and the Defence Agreements. Of course, we’ve had huge challenges, including the escalation with Türkiye.
There was also Russia's invasion of Ukraine, marking the return of war to Europe in the 21st century. Nobody can claim to have been bored during these years. Not at all.
JOURNALIST: And I’m sure there were several occasions when you, too, felt that things could go out of hand, that things might get out of control, so to speak.
N. DENDIAS: The reality is that during periods of high tension with the neighboring country, things frequently created a sense of crisis.
And it's a good thing that with prudence and several efforts, all of this has been addressed, allowing Greek citizens to safely go to the polls, express their will, and elect their next government.
JOURNALIST: Since we went back to 2019 somehow. Did you anticipate, when you took over, that we might have some progress in Greek-Turkish relations during your four years in office?
Did you believe back then that we might somehow sign these Agreements? I mean, did you, do you believe you achieved the Ministry’s goals during these four years?
N. DENDIAS: Anyone who comes into this Ministry has an obligation to set high goals. But the truth is that the reality had not been particularly encouraging.
Let's turn to what is now regarded as easier. The Agreement with Italy was signed after a 50-year negotiation. The Agreement with Egypt was signed after more than 30 years of negotiations.
I’d like to bring up the Defence Agreements, as well. We’ve never had a Defense Agreement with France. We had purchased weapon systems from France, as well as from over 50 other countries. France had not agreed to sign a defense agreement with Greece. The two Agreements with the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia were off the Greek foreign policy’s horizon, as were many other things, as were Africa, South America, and the three candidacies to the United Nations.
All these were new approaches, or at the very least, approaches beyond the horizon.
JOURNALIST: So, one might say that we are living in an era of rapid developments in our region?
N. DENDIAS: I believe we are living in an era of fast development in all aspects of human activity, in human existence itself. We can no longer wait. We cannot feel safe if we remain confined to our shells, to our traditional options, and do not seek to address things and situations that are changing rapidly.
JOURNALIST: Yesterday Egypt’s Foreign Minister, Sameh Shoukry, was here; I've been following you closely as a journalist for four years now, covering the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. I don't recall you meeting with another country's Foreign Minister more than Sameh Shoukry.
Initially, I’d like to ask if Greece still has the same perspective on things and developments in the region with Egypt, especially after the normalization of relations with Türkiye.
N. DENDIAS: Mr. Mangiriadis, Greece's relationship with Egypt is a relationship of strategic nature and, if I may say so, of immense, capital importance to Greece and Hellenism.
The very fact that I’ve seen Sameh Shoukry at least 25 times, and I’ve been to Cairo 15 to 16 times, demonstrates exactly this fundamental choice.
And I’d like to tell you something that you may know, but I'm not sure that your viewers know as well. Egypt came very close to signing a similar agreement with Türkiye under Morsi, the previous President of the Muslim Brotherhood and, as a consequence, Greece would now be nearly cut off from the wider maritime zones of the Mediterranean.
So, the fact that the paradigm has shifted, that the negotiations with Egypt have led to a satisfying conclusion, that we now have a convergence with Egypt on a number of issues, including the ones of the Exclusive Economic Zones, on which we have signed the Agreements. The fact that we see security and stability in the same way.
The fact that Egypt is the country through which Greece seeks to become an energy gateway to Europe, via a cable system and probable pipelines speaks volumes about the significance that the Hellenic Republic attaches to the two nations’ close relations.
If I had to leave a legacy, I’d say that relations with Egypt should be maintained at all costs.
JOURNALIST: Does the fact that the issue of electrical interconnection is being put high on the agenda mean that thoughts of EastMed are somehow being pushed aside in the region?
N. DENDIAS: No. It's an entirely different matter. EastMed still exists as a potential project. We need to conduct an economic analysis to determine its significance.
However, it goes without saying that the relationship with Egypt has an energy approach as well. Greece aspires to become an energy hub.
Egypt is an energy exporter, either of energy that it presently produces or energy it will produce through renewable sources. The cable is the way, actually one of the ways of transporting electricity.
There could also be a pipeline. There could be LNG ships. The relationship with Egypt secures Greece several roles in Southeast Europe.
JOURNALIST: You mentioned the partial delimitation of the EEZ with Egypt since the summer of 2020 when the Agreement was signed. Is there any progress towards a follow-up to this Agreement with Egypt?
N. DENDIAS: We have agreed with Egypt - and this applies to both of us - that any extension will always be discussed together, even if third countries in the region intervene and they have rights.
Therefore, relations with Egypt are always relations of constant discussion about the overall regulation of the Eastern Mediterranean issues.
JOURNALIST: This means that if Greece goes into talks with other countries, it will also consult Egypt and exactly the same will be done accordingly...
N. DENDIAS: Greece will inform Egypt as well and Egypt will inform Greece and this is a very important arrangement. It’s crucial.
JOURNALIST: Yes, for someone who understands International Law and the way in which they are formed...
N. DENDIAS: I believe anyone who understands the geopolitical state of affairs understands its significance very well.
JOURNALIST: Let us turn to Türkiye for a while. We said at the beginning of our discussion that you and the entire country went through a difficult four-year period with Ankara.
We are currently at a totally different point. I understand that the tragic event of the earthquakes in the neighboring country played its part in this regard.
I’d like to know if you believe that this calm climate has an expiration date.
N. DENDIAS: I hope it doesn't. On the contrary, I hope that it will lead to a start date. When will it be? When after the elections we return to a serious discussion so that we resolve our dispute.
That’s what I want and will serve while I’m still here, and I hope the opposite side of the Aegean will serve the same priority. That’s why, in my statements with my Egyptian colleague and friend yesterday, I took the position I did.
JOURNALIST: However, as the baton of statements was passed on to Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu the day before yesterday, he made mention of a “package solution” at the International Court of Justice in The Hague, saying that “if we resolve one issue, the tension will continue on the other”.
And at this point, I understand that Greece's position deviates significantly from this. As far as I can tell, Greece is not discussing a "package solution" in Greek-Turkish relations. Isn't it?
N. DENDIAS: Yes. I have a very clear perception of the approach to Greek-Turkish relations, and excuse me for using the pronoun "I".
This obviously does not coincide with the Turkish one. Because if it did, I’d sit on the opposite side of the table and that's why I positioned myself so clearly on this yesterday.
So, after the elections, we can sit down and have a serious discussion. But in order to do so, both sides should have a common understanding of the framework in which we are discussing.
I wouldn't pay too much attention to the pre-election stuff. I wouldn't listen to them much. It makes sense that pre-election statements, even on foreign policy issues, usually have to do with and are intended for an internal audience.
And let us not fool ourselves. For President Erdoğan the path to the election is steep.
He faces a double election for both the Presidency and the Parliament.
He faces difficult opinion polls. I cannot predict when it will happen. So, whatever is said, please also ask us to look at it in a certain way.
Of course, that does not mean that Türkiye will change its mind. That is not something I anticipate. I'm only saying that it would be a shame not to allow the governments that emerge from the elections to start from the exceptional point we currently find ourselves in.
JOURNALIST: Anyway, just to round things off. I understand that Ankara also realizes that Greece will never discuss sovereignty issues.
N. DENDIAS: Look, the Turks are not naive. They are not naïve at all. They know us just as well as we know them.
JOURNALIST: Because you recently mentioned the prospect of holding talks with Ankara after the elections; I guess we have elections both in Greece and Türkiye.
There will be two new governments or the same governments depending on the election results. You stated that, as the head of Greek diplomacy, you now have a clear understanding and a clear picture of what works and what doesn’t in the exploratory contacts, and I understand that, in your view, they have failed.
There have been some rounds of them for 20 to 22 years now. I’d like you to elaborate on precisely what you have in mind.
N. DENDIAS: It's not easy to do this in public. But I have an idea of the modifications that need to be made on issues of regular negotiation; Because that's what I'm talking about, right?
For God's sake, I'm not recommending revising the firm Greek positions; If I did, I wouldn't be here. But I believe there are things to be done that can freshen up procedures and possibly give hope for a better outcome.
But again, if there’s no convergence on the major issues, the solution cannot be found through a different procedure on the minor ones; it's apples and oranges. But I believe it is somewhat naive to expect that something will work precisely the same way the 64th time after it has failed 63 times.
JOURNALIST: Do you believe there was a time when the two sides were closer in those 63 rounds?
N. DENDIAS: There was, indeed.
JOURNALIST: When was it?
N. DENDIAS: Unfortunately, it's been many years, decades ago. And, no, we did not reach an agreement; we simply narrowed the difference. Besides, there's something else to keep in mind: exploratory talks are not negotiations- that's why they're called exploratory and they're not announced. So, I'd like to...
JOURNALIST: But aren’t there some reports that each side writes, aren't there? So, the Minister of Foreign Affairs can see, for example, what happened ten or twenty years ago.
N. DENDIAS: I don't claim ignorance of their content, because if there's one thing you have to do in this Ministry is read a lot and talk a little.
JOURNALIST: That makes sense. However, since you mentioned different tactics, do you mean that talks may reach the highest possible level or are you referring to regular-level talks?
N. DENDIAS: At the end of the day everything has to reach the highest level.
JOURNALIST: That’s clear.
N. DENDIAS: That, I believe, is absolutely understandable. Now, for the rest of it, and as I see it, I believe I will leave a note addressed to my successor and the Prime Minister. I didn't say the next Prime Minister because I can guess who the Prime Minister will be.
JOURNALIST: You mentioned the successor of yours, though. But let us discuss this near the end of our talk so that there’s some suspense for the people watching us.
There’s one last question on this: if the exploratory talks are not the forum for discussion, could the Greek-Turkish relations be discussed in the context of, shall we say, a multilateral conference?
N. DENDIAS: It is extremely difficult. A multilateral conference in the Eastern Mediterranean has a key obstacle, an elephant in the room. And that’s Türkiye’s refusal to recognize the Republic of Cyprus. Consider debating on a map in which Cyprus has been erased as if it does not exist. I believe there’s an issue here.
JOURNALIST: You know, I’m saying this in light of the role of the United States in our region. For example, the United States took the initiative and with the famous Abraham Accords, decades-long rivalries in the Middle East were somehow resolved.
Even Lebanon and Israel, which do not even have diplomatic relations, managed to redefine their maritime zones again with the assistance of the US. So, I wonder whether we may expect an intervention by the US factor.
N. DENDIAS: I would not expect a major actor to intervene. Of course, to be clear, we want their presence.
Greece wants the presence of the United States as well as the presence of the European Union, our family, where we belong. I have also made this point clear to the Turkish side, which tells us that the EU is a third party. The European Union is not a third party for us; it’s our family.
But on the other hand, I have to tell you that issues that lie at the core of our national sovereignty and national security, if I you will, our national dignity and patriotism, are issues that may require some assistance, but it’s preferable that we handle them ourselves to a significant extent.
JOURNALIST: Indeed, this is important, since many times in critical circumstances, if not crises, one wonders whether the first phone call made by someone in this position at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, whether it’s Dendias, the Minister before him or the next one, is to Europe or the USA.
N. DENDIAS: I will tell you because, unfortunately, I had to do so. The first thing I did was go to the airport, fly to Brussels, and meet with J. Borrell on the very day he took office. Immediately afterwards, though, I called Mike Pompeo, as well.
JOURNALIST: This is indicative, if you like, of the way things are going, so to speak, but let me take the discussion to a more academic level. There’s what is known as Kissinger's question: "Who do I contact in Europe in case there's a problem"? Now the US is calling Borrell. Do you believe that issues could be resolved that way?
N. DENDIAS: The existence of the High Representative is, in my view, a functional facilitation.
Of course, he lacks the capacity of the Secretary of State of the United States, because he is required to provide updates. But, despite its flaws, the existence of this institution is a step toward European integration, and I want you to know that I am quite proud of it.
Mr. Mangiriadis, Ι believe strongly in the European edifice, I am very proud of it and of our country's participation in it. I always say that it’s the most successful historical example of cooperation between States, an area for the protection of human rights, freedom, and democracy.
Yes, it may have enormous imperfections and huge mistakes, but it resembles monotheistic religions, that require at least 300 years to take root and then flourish- with the exception of Islam. Europe is a bright, young child, only 70 years old.
JOURNALIST: Yes, but to wrap up this topic, I understand that we have secured a period of calm in Greek-Turkish relations, this period...
N. DENDIAS: We hope so.
JOURNALIST: That's exactly what we hope. May this period of calm last until the summer and when will the restart opportunity be? During the High-level Week of the UN 78th General Assembly in September 2023?
N. DENDIAS: Let's not set a time frame so we don’t complicate things. Once the two new governments are on their feet, I believe it would be prudent to take advantage of the momentum. Because, you know, these periods won't last forever unless you take advantage of them. I think the Turkish Minister said something similar yesterday: “Something will happen and it will spoil the climate”. So, if you are forever not doing anything, don't expect the climate to be kept unchanged. Opportunities are there to be seized.
JOURNALIST: Anyway, this is how things started in 2019, with a meeting between Erdogan and Mitsotakis at the UN High-level Week in September. In the end, what went wrong during these four years?
N. DENDIAS: I think that the Turkish side either misunderstood or deliberately interpreted what we said in a different way, but if you want me to specify chronologically what, on our part, served as a catalyst aggravating our relations - because I have a very clear picture of it - as the Turkish-Libyan “memorandum” in November 2019.
JOURNALIST: Which completely changed the picture in our region and...
N. DENDIAS: A bona fide interlocutor of yours does not sign an illegal agreement by which he usurps your own rights. This is not a kick-off of a cordial relationship; this was an under-the-table strike.
JOURNALIST: If Greece got irritated with the Turkish-Libyan “memorandum”, was Türkiye more irritated with the Prime Minister's address to Congress?
N. DENDIAS: But there’s no comparison between these two.
JOURNALIST: Obviously there’s no comparison, I'm just wondering when you perceived the greatest irritation from the opposite side.
N. DENDIAS: I believe that following the Prime Minister's excellent -in my view- speech to Congress - and I consider myself very fortunate to have been there- indeed Türkiye became furious with us for reasons that are not clear to me and are not justified either by the speech’s text or the way the Prime Minister expressed himself. But I’m not sure why that happened.
JOURNALIST: And that's when diplomatic contacts were cut off, so to speak?
N. DENDIAS: That's when Turkish officials were forbidden to talk to us, even people with whom I have had friendly relations, like the Turkish Foreign Minister.
JOURNALIST: And one wonders if you can't even exchange a text message or find a way…?
N. DENDIAS: We eventually found a way to handle that; But how and what happened is something that will be revealed at some point.
JOURNALIST: Right. I understand that your role is not to publicly say which President Greece prefers on Türkiye, whether Erdoğan, Kılıçdaroğlu, or anybody else, but do you believe that there are substantial differences in Greek-Turkish foreign policy with either President?
N. DENDIAS: No, I wouldn't draw that line; I’d argue that there are quite different approaches within the parties and the Turkish system.
Greece often incorrectly considers that some quite extreme positions represent the entire Turkish system. This is not always the case though; on the opposite side of the Aegean, there are also reasonable if not incredibly reasonable, serious, moderate people who consider cooperation with Greece to be in the interests of both Turkish society and Türkiye.
JOURNALIST: And these people are with the Kemalists, aren’t they?
N. DENDIAS: No, I don't think that could be limited or have factional features.
JOURNALIST: So, you’re saying this kind of differentiation is more horizontal?
N. DENDIAS: I believe so, based on my four years of experience and prior involvement.
JOURNALIST: So, it's obvious that there’s no preference on the Greek side as to who the Turkish President will be.
N. DENDIAS: Even if there was, it would be impossible to express.
JOURNALIST: I see. Do you believe that the issue of Sweden's accession to NATO will be resolved during the summer?
N. DENDIAS: Yes, I believe that Sweden is a country that has something to offer. It has something to offer both in the military and defense level, and also in terms of values. And I believe it’s a mistake to keep Sweden in the waiting line to NATO. Therefore, I think this issue should be resolved immediately after the elections, without specifying of course where and how.
JOURNALIST: OK, there's a NATO Summit in July.
N. DENDIAS: In fact, there’s widespread optimism that as we did with Finland the day before yesterday, we will also welcome Sweden.
JOURNALIST: Will this somehow affect Türkiye's relationship with the rest of the West?
N. DENDIAS: I wouldn't put it in a Türkiye-centric context; instead, I’d say something else. NATO should progress to the next level and rather than being just a defensive alliance, albeit a very successful one, should turn into an alliance of values and principles. Sweden's presence, I believe, will contribute in this regard.
In his attempt to maintain a veneer of calm, Mr. Stoltenberg, the Secretary-General, repeatedly failed to present, if not ignored, the value framework. I think that Sweden's accession to NATO will strengthen those countries that believe that NATO is also an alliance of values and principles. The defense alliance cannot survive without being an alliance of values as well.
The defense alliance is not a line-up of tanks; rather, it’s a line-up of States, societies, and ideas.
JOURNALIST: May Sweden's NATO accession pave the way for Türkiye to eventually upgrade its F16s? “Eventually” goes for the Turkish side, as you understand.
N. DENDIAS: This is not an issue that directly concerns Greece; it concerns Türkiye and the United States.
But the United States - and when I say the United States, I mean both the Executive and the Legislative parts - takes into account a number of parameters. These parameters can only be the security and the calm of NATO’s south-eastern flank as well as the stability of the region.
Overflights and violations, obviously, do not help in this regard. And I reiterate, I always speak from the standpoint of the United States, not of Greece. The Greek side has been extremely cautious in this particular issue.
JOURNALIST: So, do you think that somehow the green light could be given? Of course, that doesn't prevent Congress from raising further objections to initiating this process with Türkiye.
N. DENDIAS: I believe that the U.S. side, considering the broader interest of the United States, has set a number of parameters that I think anybody, including Türkiye, understands.
JOURNALIST: Yes. Is a normalization of Türkiye's relations with the United States in our best interest?
N. DENDIAS: Certainly.
JOURNALIST: Do you know why I’m saying that? Because there’s a widespread perception that the reason why Greece has upgraded its geostrategic and geopolitical presence over the years, is also because we are a more efficient ally, so to say, compared to Türkiye.
N. DENDIAS: That Turkish behavior has provided opportunities for Greek foreign policy is well-known. However, Greece does not believe that Türkiye should be isolated.
In other words, it does not believe that a cornered, troubled Türkiye is in the best interest of Greece, Europe, the Alliance, or in the interest of the United States.
JOURNALIST: What about a strong Türkiye?
N. DENDIAS: A strong Türkiye that believes in the values of democracy, and human rights in its alliance and its relations with Europe is undoubtedly a Türkiye that I believe benefits Turkish society, but yes, also us.
JOURNALIST: Well, did you notice a difference in the US foreign policy once the Democrats took power? Because initially Mike Pompeo was in office until approximately the middle of your term, when Antony Blinken assumed duties as US Secretary of State for the past two years.
N. DENDIAS: Yes, generally speaking, but not in terms of Greece. Let me remind you that I have signed a defense Agreement with both of them, Mike Pompeo and Antony Blinken.
In fact, the first thing I did as Minister, two or three months after…, just behind where you’re sitting now, was to negotiate this Agreement with Mike Pompeo.
JOURNALIST: An Agreement that has been criticized, however. I’m not sure if you think it's over, so to say; Syriza had expressed reservations about its five-year extension. Do you feel that you have been vindicated by this decision?
N. DENDIAS: Generally speaking, -because one always has to set the political context and the results that were achieved- I believe that relations with the United States is one of the great successes of the Mitsotakis government.
I am ready, though, to give the opposition credit for voicing any disagreements in a respectful manner. And we didn't resort to the unacceptable but all-too-common in our country terms like "traitors, sellouts of national interest, etc.”, you know the ones…
JOURNALIST: No, that's true and I think you credit the opposition with that, namely that there have been no reactions and there have been no problems during the crisis management with Türkiye these past years.
N. DENDIAS: And I have to add that there was always adherence to secrecy, understanding, and seriousness in the discussions and briefings that took place because I regularly briefed my counterparts from all parties.
This is a huge achievement for the country. If this continues in the future, I believe that the country will have a very strong capacity to deal with crises that will almost certainly occur at some point for whatever reason, though I hope they won’t.
It’s important that the parties work together on these issues.
JOURNALIST: Precisely because we live in a world that is now full of hybrid threats, I assume that the Minister of Foreign Affairs who were in your position 10, 20 years ago faced completely different challenges than you do today.
Do you believe the country is safer today than it was in the past?
N. DENDIAS: I believe the country is facing multiple challenges compared to the challenges it faced in previous years. First of all, if we look at the not-too-distant past, there were two camps and it was very clear where you were, who your friends were, and where your problems originated.
After 1974, and especially after 1963, the issue of Türkiye was a problem for Greece. However, our policy horizon was relatively limited. In fact, it had to do a little bit with the Balkans and a little bit with the Aegean Sea.
The reality now requires you to take a completely different approach.
Let me give you a simple example: Greece's position on International Law and the International Law of the Sea, the strength of Greece's position at the moment is demonstrated by the position taken by various Indo-Pacific states on the same issue.
So, Greece has a convergence of views, it has a convergence of interests with various countries that it would not have expected to visit, discuss with, or establish a lasting relationship with in the past.
JOURNALIST: How does that help us? In the event of negotiation, could the Court of Justice in the Hague, for example, refer to a relevant case law and say that…
N. DENDIAS: I wouldn't even go that far, yet what you say is not entirely out of place. I’d say that a climate is created internationally that shapes both International Law and an international practice that constitutes the application of one side’s positions and views.
In other words, things were not the same before and after UNCLOS. This is obvious to everyone.
When I went to Jamaica, one might ask "What reason does the Greek Minister have to go to Jamaica?". But Jamaica is where the Convention was signed, that's where it was entered into force; Montego Bay is the city. We ensured that Montego Bay was twinned with Sitia, the southeasternmost point of Greek territory.
JOURNALIST: A Convention, however, that neither Türkiye nor the United States have yet signed, right?
N. DENDIAS: There’s a difference though. The United States has signed the Convention. It has not ratified it but it constantly invokes it and regards it as a "gospel". The same as we do.
Türkiye has issues, but I believe it has misinterpreted it. In my view, with a cordial understanding with Greece, Türkiye will realize that what it perceives as a threat is actually a blessing. These are rules on which Türkiye could also secure its maritime communication.
JOURNALIST: Since we discussed hybrid threats, there has been a lot of discussion about your position on the fence in Evros. A position you took in 2018.
You were against its construction back then and I’d like to ask…
N. DENDIAS: Against its expansion.
JOURNALIST: Against its expansion. I'm sorry, you're right. I’d like you to elaborate on it if you don’t mind.
N. DENDIAS: First of all, let me say that I'm well aware of the migration-refugee issue. I handled it for two years and I believe I did so successfully.
I had a sense of the gravity of that threat as well as the potential to deal with a threat that I had already dealt with without a fence. Because, as you may recall, I had already completed the construction of the fence where there was no river.
But aside from that, with the means at our disposal, we could well have dealt with any form of threat at that time, namely the waves of irregular migration.
What was not on the horizon, Mr. Mangiriadis, in 2018 was the hybrid threat of 2020. That is…
JOURNALIST: So, you’re saying that this is a game changer, right? The rules of the game have changed, so to speak.
N. DENDIAS: I don't want to inflame the climate with what I'm saying, as I just told you earlier that the climate with the neighboring country should not be impacted. However, anyone citing statements from 2018 should recall what happened in 2020 and what was required to be addressed in 2020 and project it accordingly.
I don't think there is a person in this world who likes fences or likes walls. But the issue here is different.
JOURNALIST: Right. Do you think that the migration-refugee issue, which you have indeed handled as Minister of Citizen Protection, is one in which Greece is often left, so to speak, on its own, while the rest of Europe sort of pulls its tail out?
N. DENDIAS: I wouldn't state it so forcefully and in such an emphatic way as you did. But the truth is that a number of countries are not participating in the dialogue as fully as we would like them to. For example, they are not participating in refugee relocation programs, which allow refugees to be distributed across all countries of the European Union. That’s not right.
Of course, they are suggesting providing money, but, again, that’s not right. Yet again, I cannot but underline that during the 2020 hybrid threat, a number of countries sent police officers to Greece to help our country and Europe to deal with the problem.
JOURNALIST: It was probably a wake-up call for Europe and what was going on.
N. DENDIAS: Of course, there are photographs from that time; I went with EU High Representative Borrell on the ground; we flew across the entire borderline by helicopter. Of course, it was obvious what a threat this approach posed to Europe and Greece.
JOURNALIST: I see. Another open issue is our relations with Albania, namely the delimitation of the continental shelf and the Exclusive Economic Zone with this country. It’s been agreed to sign a special agreement and refer the issue to The Hague ICJ. However, there has been no progress in recent years.
N. DENDIAS: That’s not true. There is.
JOURNALIST: What is it?
N. DENDIAS: As far as we know, because actually, this is not a matter of ours, the Albanian side is ready to sign and submit to the country’s President an authorization document so that their negotiating team can be authorized to discuss the issue with us.
JOURNALIST: When is that going to happen?
N. DENDIAS: That’s for the Prime Minister of Albania to determine, but I think it won’t take long.
JOURNALIST: Since Mr. Rama was in Athens a few days ago, did you discuss this?
N. DENDIAS: I meet with Mr. Rama quite often, as does the Prime Minister. Regarding our relations with Albania, I believe that the paradigm has also changed to a large extent. I believe in Greek-Albanian friendship. I believe that the Greek minority serves as a bridge that connects the two countries.
And I’d like to tell you that the Greek side should pay special attention to Albania. Albania has absolutely accepted what we are proposing to Türkiye. That is…
JOURNALIST: A special agreement.
N. DENDIAS: A special agreement and extension of territorial waters. Albania explicitly stated that Greece… can extend its territorial waters to 12 nautical miles.
And aside from that, a special agreement on the basis of UNCLOS and referral to The Hague ICJ, including full rights of the islands.
Therefore, I believe that the courageous Albanian position should be given special attention.
JOURNALIST: Do you believe that we can have some progress on this issue in 2023?
N. DENDIAS: Of course, we can, but that of course will be for the next Greek government to decide, not for me.
JOURNALIST: I mean you expect that there will be some progress from the Albanian side so that there will be a development from us, as well.
N. DENDIAS: Absolutely.
JOURNALIST: So, you expect some progress in 2023.
N. DENDIAS: If I had to put a timeframe on it, yes, I’d say that I expect it in 2023.
JOURNALIST: I see. We discussed Greek-Turkish relations, relations with Albania, and with the United States. We didn't touch upon the war in Ukraine. I’d like you to know how you feel about that.
You’ve been there a lot; you’ve been in the war zone many times. Do you believe we are on the verge of a resolution-ceasefire prospect?
N. DENDIAS: No, unfortunately, we are not. Unfortunately, the narratives of the two sides - and it is obvious which is lawful and just and which is unlawful and unacceptable - are not compatible.
In the coming weeks, it is certain that both sides will launch attacks and counter-attacks. A new balance will emerge. I cannot predict what that will be. And from then on, we’ll see.
So, at this point, the best I can hope for this matter - and I say this with deep regret - is a “frozen” ceasefire.
JOURNALIST: Was it of any concern to you that the opposition opposed delivering weapons systems to Ukraine?
N. DENDIAS: No. I believe it did so primarily for ideological reasons. In fact, I think that the opposition fully realizes that the Russian invasion comprises a narrative that even slightly tolerated, much alone accepted, by the world community, poses a significant risk to our country’s interests.
And because the word "interests" may sound a bit heavy, I’d also say to our country’s value system…
JOURNALIST: I’d like to conclude our discussion regarding our foreign policy by wondering if we’ll finally be elected to the Security Council.
N. DENDIAS: Yes, we will.
JOURNALIST: And what benefits might that bring?
N. DENDIAS: Significant ones.
JOURNALIST: Would you like to elaborate on that?
N. DENDIAS: First and foremost, the Security Council is the closest thing to global governance. So, our country's participation at this level allows us to do more than just promote our positions and serve our values and principles (and not our petty interest, to be clear).
It primarily allows us to communicate with other countries that need to have their positions understood by us. Aside from that, there’s also a period of presidency of the Security Council.
To appreciate how important the UN Security Council is to Greece, consider the number of times we have turned to the UN Security Council throughout our history.
JOURNALIST: How many?
N. DENDIAS: It’s countless. Just, just on the Cyprus issue alone, it's dozens.
N. DENDIAS: Of course, you’ll ask me if that’s something we wish for. No, it’s not. But, because humanity is currently in perpetual crisis, playing a leading role in crisis management opens up new opportunities and prestige. And it is critical for Greece to pursue this.
And please keep in mind our two other campaigns: our campaign for the Human Rights Council, where we have never been elected, and for the presidency of the United Nations General Assembly, where we have also never been elected.
If prestige and a role in the global arena are to be pursued, Greece, as a country that is not a huge military power nor does it have a huge budget, should look for alternative methods, such as what the Anglo-Saxons call soft power. That is what we pursue.
JOURNALIST: One would expect you to spend the Easter holidays in Corfu. You are going to Gökçeada (Imbros) this year, though. Why?
N. DENDIAS: I think it's a truly historic opportunity. The Patriarch travels to Gökçeada (Imbros) every ten years and he is doing so again this year. It's Patriarch Bartholomew and he's 85 years old.
On this visit to his homeland, I’d like to be with him. Gökçeada (Imbros) constitutes a successful example of a Greek community in Türkiye.
Why? Because Gökçeada (Imbros) has 600 Greek citizens right now, up from 300 in the past. Students at school have almost...
JOURNALIST: …doubled.
N. DENDIAS: There are 60 children. They have doubled. So, the presence of the Greek Minister would play an important role in encouraging this successful example.
And I have to say - because I want to be fair - that Türkiye encouraged and facilitated my visit. It did not hinder my visit to Gökçeada (Imbros).
JOURNALIST: So, I think, it will be a good opportunity for… -- to be there.
N. DENDIAS: I believe that attending the Epitaph Procession with the Patriarch is important to my life and the way I see things.
JOURNALIST: Mr. Dendias, thank you for hosting us today here at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.
N. DENDIAS: Likewise, Mr. Mangiriadis. Thank you very much.
April 12, 2023