V. PETOURI: Minister, thank you very much for choosing state-owned television for one of your rare appearances. You do not speak often; your interview comes at a crucial moment, with a war that has shocked us all raging in the heart of Europe.
We have to say that this interview is video-recorded, because shortly afterwards you are travelling to New York, where you will hold a series of contacts, first with the UN Secretary General and with many others.
N. DENDIAS: I warmly thank you for the opportunity. Indeed, there is a scheduled meeting with the Secretary-General, Mr. Guterres; there are a number of issues that concern us, obviously starting with the Russian invasion of Ukraine, but it’s not only that.
There are the issues of the Eastern Mediterranean, there are the issues of Libya and, in general, an overall review of where things are going following the Russian invasion.
V. PETOURI: I imagine, of course, that all these contacts will take place right under the shadow of the war, of the Russian invasion. I know that you are leaving with your thoughts being with the Diaspora Greeks in Ukraine and especially in Mariupol and I know that you will discuss the issue and ask for their protection, that is a series of measures to be taken aimed at their protection.
N. DENDIAS: Ms. Petouri, what is happening is extremely unpleasant. First of all, as we all see on television screens, Mariupol is the main target of Russian forces at the moment. The theater where more than 1,000 people had found shelter was shelled. Fortunately, they were in the basement. Hopefully, it -because I saw the building- withstood the shelling. This is the first information (we are having).
But, in any case, what is happening is a completely outright war crime.
I would also like to tell you, and Ι will mention this to the Secretary-General, that Greece is one of the 38 countries that have signed a request to open an investigation in The Hague regarding the war crimes being committed during this invasion.
V. PETOURI: I see, so the issue will be referred to The Hague.
N. DENDIAS: But I will also have the opportunity to meet with Ms. Greenfield, the US Permanent Representative to the United Nations, member of the US Cabinet, so that I get informed about the views of the US side on how the effort to stop this unacceptable and illegal invasion can proceed from now on.
V. PETOURI: Minister, now that we have you here, we will touch upon everything, we will discuss the American factor, we will also discuss the role of NATO.
I would like to start with a question, a simplistic one if I may say so, which is, however, on everyone's lips: after 23 days of war and while the talks continue at the diplomatic level, is there any mobility, how close are we to ending this war now? Will diplomacy take the reins away from hostilities?
N. DENDIAS: I'm sorry but I will give you a direct answer; I do not know. As no one else knows. We all express our hopes and make our best efforts.
Because what is happening is not just a humanitarian tragedy, it is not just incompatible with International Law, it is completely unacceptable to happen in the 21st century. Beyond that, however, when the Russian invasion will end is something I cannot predict.
What I want to tell you is that we do and will continue to do with all our might-whatever this is- everything we can in this direction. And we do and will continue to do the best we can, and as you put it very well previously, to protect the Greek Diaspora in these regions.
V. PETOURI: Minister, one might guess what could happen if one knew what Vladimir Putin's goals are. Has this been discerned politically? Have his goals been assessed? Does he want to occupy all of Ukraine, as it is heard, perhaps, in an extreme scenario? Is he just interested in the annexation of Crimea and eastern Ukraine? Does he want to leave troops behind? Can the Russian economy withstand this?
N. DENDIAS: Mrs. Petouri, I will completely avoid either making an assessment or explaining the Russian stance for one simple reason: Because whatever the priorities of President Putin after the Russian invasion are, one thing is clear, that they are completely contradictory with International Law, with everything provided for in the Charter of the United Nations.
And I have to emphasize, and I want to emphasize, that Russia is a permanent member of the Security Council, and therefore, in theory, it is one of the pillars that should enforce this Charter upon Humanity.
Beyond that, it is clear that Russia is seeking the partition and neutralization of Ukraine. We do not know what the overall plan of the Russian side is and we cannot be aware of it.
V. PETOURI: I have to tell you that, since we are talking about the operational part, and with that we can close this topic because as you said, there is only a little we can say on that at the moment, since no one knows what Putin's goals are and then let’s touch upon diplomacy and see if there is room for a solution and a ceasefire.
I would like to draw your attention to all this criticism that you received from the Opposition parties, not you personally, though in fact there was talk of you taking a different stance, – I see you are smiling – regarding sending military equipment to Ukraine.
N. DENDIAS: First, I would like to make a personal comment and then I will come to the rest.
From the very first day I came to this Ministry, I am tired of reading that I constantly disagree, that I have a different attitude all the time etc.
One thing is clear: I am the Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Mitsotakis Government and I remain the Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Mitsotakis Government. I think that says it all. If I had a different view on an important foreign policy issue, the path I should have taken is evident.
V. PETOURI: Is there a possibility to send more military equipment?
N. DENDIAS: We are a European country. The European Union, by an overwhelming majority, not to say unanimously, has decided to assist Ukraine in every way and that is what we are trying to do, by providing defense material to a country that is being invaded.
Greece is guided by distinct principles in its international relations. For us, the territorial integrity of states is a holy gospel; regarding our foreign policy we always proceed in this way. This is also both in our national interest, if you will, and a position of principle in which we deeply believe.
By helping every country that fights for its independence and its existence, we are in fact promoting what we - and when I say we, I do not only mean the Mitsotakis Government, I do not only mean the Prime Minister, I mean the whole of Greek society - believe.
V. PETOURI: Do you know what they criticize you for? That the traditionally good relations with Russia for decades have been "damaged", and due to religious affiliation, there was a closer contact, and that Greece was found to follow the tactics of the Baltic countries and Poland, which is the defense tactics within Europe and a mirror of NATO, and not the French tactics.
This is what the Opposition criticizes you of, I convey their arguments, which is that each country should defend its own territorial integrity.
N. DENDIAS: First of all, everything we do has been done by France, let me be clear on that.
But beyond that, indeed, our relations with Russia are historical and I hold out hope that they will be restored at some point. When? When Russia returns to international legality.
Of course, because I want to be honest, when I was appointed Minister of Foreign Affairs, our relations with Russia were not that great and I worked consciously and hard so as to improve them. And I am sincerely sorry for the current state they are in today, but this is not a responsibility of Greece.
Greece is a country that acts on the basis of upholding principles and values and cannot but assist all the countries that co-sign and fight for these principles. If this eventually brings it into contrast with other practices, this cannot be considered Greece’s responsibility.
V. PETOURI: Minister, were you taken by surprise by this operation? Considering that 24 hours before Lavrov had assured you that there would be no invasion; there has been a lot of talk about it as well.
N. DENDIAS: I want to be honest with you now, because it is already known. We had clear warnings from both the US and British sides that an invasion was imminent. And not just warnings, warnings accompanied with photographic material and evidence.
On the other hand, we had the assurance of a number of actors, both from the Ukrainian side including Mr. Kuleba, with whom I spoke during my visit to Ukraine, that this would not happen, that Russia was trying to exert pressure for a solution. The expression used was: strategic ambiguity.
And, of course, there was the assurance given by Mr. Lavrov to me, during our private talk, the assurance given by President Putin to President Macron; Russia was telling all sides that it was not going to do that.
But in general, our response and our objection to all things related to the barbaric violation of International Law is firm. We can never, ever be party to a line of thinking where the violation of international law is expected and acceptable.
V. PETOURI: Do you know what else was surprising and was discussed a lot? That a few hours following the invasion Lavrov spoke of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus.
N. DENDIAS: Actually, it was a few days. I think a few days later.
V. PETOURI: A few days? Anyway, it was shortly afterwards.
N. DENDIAS: Evidently, that was a faux pas. I cannot interpret it in any other way, it did not occur while I was in Moscow and it never occured during our talks, either this one or previous ones.
V. PETOURI: I see. Well, to see now how optimistic we can be, how much progress has been made diplomatically, as regards talks; we see that there is also a kind of toning down on Putin's part as regards Nazism, that is, he does not raise the issue…
N. DENDIAS: …of overthrowing the Government.
V. PETOURI: Exactly, the overthrow of the Zelenskyy Government. There are concessions on the part of Ukraine as well, on the issue of neutrality, on NATO membership. Of course, there are still many thorny issues, such as the annexation of Crimea. How optimistic are you and to what extent do you feel that steps are being taken right now?
N. DENDIAS: I am not a magician. I am very happy because there are contacts taking place between the two sides. And I also express, -I think all people do -they do not need to be involved in diplomacy-, the wish for this humanitarian tragedy to end.
Beyond that, as you quite rightly say, there are some deviations from the original positions of the two sides, but on the other hand, the two narratives, at the moment, do not seem compatible.
Russia is asking the Ukrainian side to make concessions that President Zelenskyy is not ready to make. And I fully understand his position. He has a domestic audience, his own public opinion for which he is fighting, people have been sacrificed for it, it is not easy to denounce those for whose sake Ukrainian society and the Ukrainian army are currently fighting.
V. PETOURI: Do you see a retreat on the part of Moscow?
N. DENDIAS: It is difficult. President Putin, for his part, has essentially created the narrative of a police operation; Moscow does not present it as an invasion, as a war, so it is difficult for him to back off from his initial position.
Nevertheless, diplomacy is not a process of resolving the obvious and the easy issues. On the contrary, it is a process of resolving the difficult ones and that’s why every effort is required.
I hope, I repeat it, I hope that the meeting with the Secretary General will enlighten me about the efforts that are being made and can be made to reach an immediate, in principle, result, and the immediate result is the cessation of hostilities. It is terrible that civilians are being shelled in the 21st century. It is awful.
And by the way, if you allow me to tell you something. Now as far as the Greek side is concerned, regardless of the legality or the illegality or the image presented by the Russian side, the Greek side had taken precautions. We, as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, issued three Announcements in a row, obviously to the Prime Minister’s knowledge.
With the first Announcement, we asked the Greeks, many days ahead of the invasion, not to travel there. The second, ten days before the invasion, to leave Ukraine and with the third one, if I remember correctly, three or four days before the invasion, to leave Ukraine again, precisely because the information we had was such that made the scenario of an invasion to seem realistic.
So, in these cases, one acts on the basis of safe foreseeing. What is safe foreseeing? To ensure the safety of Greek citizens and those of the Diaspora Greeks who want to leave. So, you tell them “Leave".
V. PETOURI: This is a war on European soil and the question is whether this war has awakened Europe and whether it has awakened it at two levels.
One is the level of its integration; it is no coincidence that the issue of the European Union’s military component is now being hotly debated, something that was abandoned in the past, something that was left behind. It was taken over, if I am not mistaken, by your predecessor, the then Minister of Foreign Affairs, George Papandreou.
The second level is energy, that is, how much Europe is embraced with and entrapped – if we could say so- in a very close energy relationship with Moscow.
These are two big issues; I am asking you about these two big issues.
N. DENDIAS: It is known that Europe is moving forward through crises.
First of all, I want to tell you that I am very proud of and very loyal to the European project. Not because it is perfect, not because it does not have too many problems, but because, in my opinion, it is perhaps the proudest achievement in the history of mankind. A common area of peace, security and protection of human rights. It is unprecedented in the history of mankind, despite its many mistakes and many problems.
This area, which is a few decades old, will take a long time to be integrated. I always say that it is something like monotheistic religions, with the exception of Islam, it takes 300 years.
V. PETOURI: Will this war act as a spark?
N. DENDIAS: This crisis, however, creates conditions to attain maturity abruptly. Just as the crisis of the pandemic caused abrupt maturity of the economy resulting in the acceptance of the Eurobond, which, when even mentioned three or four years ago, was considered anathema to some countries. Similarly, this crisis creates the need to develop a defence component in the European Union, which is absolutely necessary. So, if there's any good in this tragedy, it's that. How fast we will move forward.
V. PETOURI: Do you believe that the European partners will take steps?
N. DENDIAS: But there is a huge issue that should also be discussed as a parameter, the rearmament of Germany. The 100 billion € announced is a huge sum. The German army that will emerge from this investment will be a very powerful army.
Europe, therefore, should discuss very seriously the rules for the creation of its defense autonomy and I would like to clarify something about Greece. Greece sees our autonomy, European autonomy, as combined with NATO and combined with the American presence. Not as a contrast to NATO and the US presence.
We believe that there is a community of interests of democracies that can function through this violent awakening. And, of course, it is very important -and I have to say it- for our national interests.
V. PETOURI: Of course, it is very important to have a European… when you are on the EU’s border, it is very important, facing Turkey.
N. DENDIAS: I think I do not need to elaborate on that further.
V. PETOURI: I think that goes without saying for all of us. Let’s talk a little bit about energy and then let us see the role of NATO in this.
N. DENDIAS: About 40% of Europe's energy is supplied by Russia. It is an extremely high percentage. We in Greece made some choices, which are proving to be right. First, the shift towards renewable energy, of course in the long run, it cannot happen overnight. Secondly, the various natural gas regasification facilities, the so-called FSRU, already operating in Revythousa and to operate shortly in Alexandroupolis. That means being able to receive gas imports from countries like Algeria, the United States and other countries beyond our shores. All this provides Europe with a second possibility. Instead of relying on Russian energy, it can obtain energy through Greece and this elevates Greece to an energy hub.
V. PETOURI: Exactly.
N. DENDIAS: The big bet of Alexandroupolis for us, which will be part of the first agreement, which I signed with the United States of America, has been won. Alexandroupolis did not exist on the geopolitical map. Alexandroupolis entered the geopolitical map in 2009 and since then it is developing at tremendous speed.
Therefore, Greece has a lot to gain. This does not mean that we are happy to be at this point, but in any case, Greece, having this geographical location and having made these choices, has an increased role to play.
And let me add another dimension, which is not very well known, the Greek-Egyptian Agreement. The Greek-Egyptian Agreement on maritime zones ensures the possibility of a cable connection between Africa and Europe. It is a huge achievement of historic proportions. It is a matter of great importance to the country and that is why the country has concluded this Agreement and is fully prepared and willing to safeguard it.
V. PETOURI: We will return to energy when we discuss the Greek-Turkish relations, because they have come to the fore, the Turkish press refers to them today.
But now I would like to ask you about the role of NATO. We see that NATO is present here, watching this war from a distance, it is very cautious in getting involved by air, to get involved in Ukraine, despite Zelenskyy's constant appeals.
N. DENDIAS: NATO is based on Article 5; it is involved when there is a threat or war against one of its members. Ukraine is not a member of NATO, so NATO need to be extremely cautious. Let me remind you that both Russia and some NATO countries are nuclear powers. You realize, then, what a Russian engagement with NATO would mean?
V. PETOURI: Yes, a nightmare.
N. DENDIAS: Beyond that, however, as regards International Law in general, NATO is doing its job, it’s helping Ukraine and helping as much as it can. I saw President Biden yesterday announcing a new package of aid and military assistance to Ukraine. So, while Ukraine is fighting for its existence and independence, NATO is helping. The fact that it is not involved, that goes without saying. Otherwise there would be no distinction between members and non-members.
V. PETOURI: The role of the United States is also cautious, that is, many times we have heard Zelenskyy expressing dissatisfaction and asking for more...
N. DENDIAS: Maybe bitterness.
V. PETOURI: Bitterness because he wants a more active support.
N. DENDIAS: Look, his position and stance are understandable and, if you allow me to predict, it may become even more pronounced in this direction. On the other hand, however, it was made clear from the outset by both NATO and the US that “they won’t get involved”.
V. PETOURI: Didn't Zelenskyy feel that he had support behind him?
N. DENDIAS: He had support, in the broad sense of support for his positions and views.
V. PETOURI: Yes, is it because he didn’t feel that he took this stance?
N. DENDIAS: Look, if he had the feeling that there would be a military intervention from the West, then he made a big mistake. And I told you earlier, the estimations I was getting from the Ukrainian side was that there would be no invasion.
V. PETOURI: I see. We will return to the economic aspect, as far as Europe is concerned and I would suggest at this point to take a break and immediately afterwards we will have with us our diplomatic editor Nikos Meletis, to touch upon the Greek-Turkish relations which are in the news on the one hand due to the war, on the other hand due to the Prime Minister’s meeting with President Erdogan.
V. PETOURI: Ladies and gentlemen, we are here at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, we’ve returned to our interview with the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Mr. Nikos Dendias, and now let us turn to the role of Turkey, of Ankara, Minister, which is very important.
At first, we believed, after Ukraine's call to close the straits, that Tayyip Erdogan is in a tight corner, judging by Lavrov's statements, his relations with Russia are at a very good level.
On the other hand, Turkey’s relations with Ukraine are not at a bad level at all. Turkey presents itself as a guarantor force, in fact it has asked for a Putin-Zelenskyy meeting to take place on Turkish soil as well. And at the same time, we see a mobility in the energy field, the Turkish press speaks today of "a cooperation between Athens and Ankara" and even reports that "this was also raised in the meeting of the Prime Minister with the Turkish President".
So, that’s the whole range of developments in recent days regarding Greek-Turkish relations; we will be linked now with Nikos Meletis.
N. DENDIAS: To begin with, the content of the Prime Minister’s, Mr. Mitsotakis' discussion with President Erdogan came to my knowledge through Mr. Mitsotakis, who had the kindness to inform me in detail on Monday morning. And I have to tell you that such an issue, because I also saw various reports in Turkey about joint exploitation, etc., such issues were not raised. And also, it is not consistent with long-established Greek foreign policy positions.
V. PETOURI: Are you talking about joint exploitation of the Aegean? About Akar's statements following his meeting with the Minister of Defense, actually.
N. DENDIAS: These are coming from the Turkish side, but you know, I want to be honest. This is not the first time we have heard this. Too many times the Turkish side, various people from the Turkish side claim that something like this was allegedly said.
This has never happened. In principle, our positions with regard to Turkey are very clear. We maintain that we have only one dispute, a specific dispute, we even propose the procedure for resolving this dispute, International Law, the Convention on the Law of the Sea. Talks? If we do not agree, there is The Hague.
V. PETOURI: These are our national positions.
N. DENDIAS: There is no deviation; I think there is no national deviation from this. There is a very broad consensus by everyone on such a position.
What is there to jointly exploit when we have not agreed on what belongs where?
V. PETOURI: I imagine you mean that there is no delimitation.
N. DENDIAS: There is no delimitation of either the Exclusive Economic Zones or the continental shelf. And there are no rules on which to rely on and achieve this because Turkey does not accept what is right, legal and self-evident and that is that UNCLOS must be implemented.
V. PETOURI: Let us connect with Nikos Meletis, via Skype. Good afternoon, Nikos.
N. MELETIS: Good afternoon, Minister, good afternoon Valia.
N. DENDIAS: Good afternoon Mr. Meletis, glad to hear you.
V. PETOURI: So, what information do you have, and what is your assessment on this? And on the reports in the Turkish press today, Thursday, which are quite extensive as regards cooperation. There were also the statements by Mr. Akar on joint exploitation in the Aegean, on energy cooperation and the fact that this issue was raised at the meeting between the two men, as I told the Minister before.
N. MELETIS: As for the issue of joint exploitation, I do not think there is such an issue to be discussed.
V. PETOURI: I mean energy cooperation, not joint exploitation in the Aegean.
N. MELETIS: Yes, on the issue of energy cooperation. There is no such issue. The Minister put it in simple terms and I think all political forces in Greece, every rational Greek, agree that there can be no joint exploitation anywhere in the Aegean unless there is a delimitation of what is mine and what is yours first, before we move on to joint exploitation.
Beyond that, of course, regarding the Prime Minister's summit with the Turkish President, it was a meeting that came after a period of tension and harsh rhetoric, while another issue is aggravating our relations, a unilateral Turkish claim. And I'm talking about the attempt to link the so-called demilitarization with the sovereignty status over even large Greek islands. The two leaders are trying to pick up the thread, as has been done in the past, starting from simple matters, such as cooperation in areas where the two countries can cooperate without tensions: the economy, trade, tourism and perhaps energy. And beyond that, trying to build a safer, more resilient environment, as all other issues, the delimitation of the continental shelf and the EEZ and the unilateral Turkish claims are issues in which…
V. PETOURI: We have a problem with our connection.
N. MELETIS: …but the goal is at least not to have the tensions that existed two years ago. This process is not easy, we have to admit it, because even in simple, the so-called “low policy” issues, this positive cooperation stumbles at some point on Turkey's unilateral claims. Everything is judged on the result and of course I have to say that circumstances may prove quite favourable because Mr. Erdoğan wants to appear as a peacemaker, as a factor of stability, with the aim, of course, of improving his relations ...
V. PETOURI: Also, as a guarantor power.
N. MELETIS: Yes, to improve his relations with the United States and the European Union, because there is a very difficult pre-election year ahead of him. So much for the meeting.
However, seeing and hearing the discussion you previously had with the Minister, I would really like to hear his assessment. We see that Turkey is not the evasive neutral, as it is commonly said - it is not neutral at all, it provides weapons to Ukraine, it offers airspace to Russia. Nevertheless, do you think, Minister, that Turkey is attempting to play this role in order to raise claims or obtain gains in other fronts, probably on issues that concern Greece or Cyprus?
N. DENDIAS: Mr. Meletis, the firm positions and theorems of Greek foreign policy do not resemble those of Turkish foreign policy. If you want to go back in history, during World War II, Turkey, if I remember correctly, declared war on Germany just a few weeks, maybe days before the end of the war.
Greece has some fundamental principles, I mentioned them before. It is guided by these principles. These are Greece’s values; this is its interest.
Turkey chooses a different role. And we see this unfolding in the present situation of the Russian invasion of Ukraine. It is attempting to talk with both sides, it condemns but does not impose sanctions, it closed the straits on the warships with a delay. This is Turkey’s position.
What there is no chance of happening, none whatsoever, is Turkey, with the way it moves and maneuvers as regards Russia and Ukraine, to achieve results that will have an impact on its differences with Greece.
On the contrary, if you allow me to make a prediction, the galvanising of the European Union and the creation of a defensive arm of the European Union in the long run, will provide Greece with significant opportunities that our country does not currently have to the degree it would like to have. And I am referring to the support from the European Union for a simple, sensible and understandable reason. There can be no less protection and assistance to a member state than to a non-member state. Article 42.7 of the Treaty on European Union is the future of European defence.
V. PETOURI: Minister, could there be a point of convergence -with both Greece and Cyprus- on energy issues between the two sides? Because this is a major issue that may have taken a back seat right now due to the war in Ukraine, but it is something I think will keep us busy in the near future, isn’t it Nikos?
N. MELETIS: Yes, of course, this plan - we saw plans for Turkey to be involved in the energy matters of the Eastern Mediterranean again, especially after the visit of the Israeli President Mr. Herzog to Ankara. Surely, there are serious obstacles that are also of political nature. Because a Turkish involvement in the energy matters of the Eastern Mediterranean means that it will have to engage in a dialogue with the Republic of Cyprus, something it refuses to do.
V. PETOURI: Precisely.
N. MELETIS: What I do not know - and I would like the Minister's assessment on this - is whether in the near future there will be some kind of pressure on Turkey to participate, either with the pipeline project it seeks to build from Israel, or in the EastMed Gas Forum, in which it has not participated so far.
N. DENDIAS: Yes, Mr. Meletis, thank you for the question. The responsibility for not participating lies with Turkey, you said so yourself. It does not participate because it does not recognize the Republic of Cyprus.
Greece does not seek to exclude Turkey from the international arena, it is not something we desire. Especially the Mitsotakis government has the perception, when it comes to values, that Turkey should be a part of the solution to a series of problems.
But this must be decided by Turkey in the first place, because there is a question of rules involved: by what rules? A key rule is that it cannot deal with the European Union and at the same time not recognize one of the member states, namely the Republic of Cyprus.
One other thing is that it cannot, as we said before, speak about rights over either the continental shelf or Exclusive Economic Zone, without adhering to the International Law of the Sea and the Convention on the Law of the Sea, with the specious argument that it has not signed it. If Turkey, on the other hand, acknowledges the obvious in a positive way, then Greece, as always, will lend a helping hand and cooperate with Turkey.
I recall that it was Greece which, from 2000 onwards, supported Turkey's effort to become a member of the European Union, but with one precondition: that Turkey accepts the European acquis, which includes UNCLOS. And Greece is always ready to do that, as Greece does not have an anti-Turkish stance.
Greece, however, has also the obligation to defend its national rights, and International Law, if you will. In this case, these two are absolutely convergent. International Law is the ‘holy gospel’ of our policy, as I said before referring to Ukraine and the same applies with regard to Greek-Turkish relations.
Nothing would make us happier than a change of Turkey's stance, which would eventually lead to a very close cooperation with Greece. And, as it was said the day before yesterday in the Parliament, the momentum generated through this cooperation would be impressive, either in the economy or in any other field.
V. PETOURI: In this context, Minister - and I would appreciate your help here, Nikos – I imagine you hold the view that your policy of opening up to the countries of North Africa is aimed precisely at this, at strengthening national interests. And whether Greece, by forging alliances, can have much better relations and achieve greater progress as regards its national issues. Do you think that the war in Ukraine, to the extent it is related to energy issues, upgrades these agreements that have been made?
N. DENDIAS: Obviously.
N. MELETIS: Should I start?
V. PETOURI: Both of you. Of course, you may ask, Nikos.
N. DENDIAS: Mr. Meletis, please go ahead. You ask first, I am here to answer questions, so please.
N. MELETIS: Yes, it is obvious that the upgrade of the Eastern Mediterranean region follows the need for the European Union to find new and independent energy sources and energy transport routes, something we have been saying and writing for years.
This is now becoming imperative, we see that the European Commission proposed a plan to make Europe independent from Russian gas by 2027, but of course these things do not happen overnight. About two months ago, the US withdrew its interest in the EastMed gas pipeline, on the grounds that it was not economically viable. This makes sense, since large deposits required to fill this pipeline have not been discovered yet and no interest has been expressed.
Recently, however, Chevron’s Chairman of the Board - the large US Company - said that these plans should be revised, even the plan for the EastMed.
Therefore, the game in the Eastern Mediterranean is just beginning. The plan for the electricity interconnection of Europe through Greece with Asia, Israel, but also Africa, with Egypt, is very important.
This plan is going ahead, as the Minister said at the beginning. I would really like an assurance, an assessment from the part of the Minister, that this project will not be delayed nor will there be any delays caused by the Egyptian side, as we have seen in the past, due to objections raised by Turkey.
Because let me remind you that the cable will be routed from an area delimitated by the Greek-Egyptian Αgreement, as the Minister mentioned, but at the same time at the point that Turkey claims to be delimited by the Turkish-Libyan memorandum.
N. DENDIAS: Yes, thank you. You will allow me a broader overview and a straight answer. First of all, I believe that Greek foreign policy has discerned developments quite correctly.
It discerned correctly in the first place that the distinction of the old architecture between Israel and the Arab world has ceased to exist. And in a very short time it achieved the conclusion of important Agreements with both Israel and a number of Arab countries.
The defence Agreement with the United Arab Emirates was ratified by the Parliament yesterday. States do not sign defence Agreements just like that. That was said by PASOK’s rapporteur, Mr. Loverdos. It is of great importance when one of the most powerful military forces in the Arab world forms an alliance with us.
Beyond that, we maintain the closest relations with Egypt than we ever did. And the Greek-Egyptian Agreement is proof of this very close relationship. And we maintain relations with Saudi Arabia, with all the Gulf countries, up to Oman, with Iraq, with Jordan.
We see, then, that Greek politics has developed as a second cycle - I rate Greek foreign policy on the basis of a series of concentric, expanding, and intersecting cycles – so regarding this second cycle, which contains the Eastern Mediterranean and Africa, there are remarkable successes that have been achieved.
Now, the interconnection of Greece and Egypt, the Greek-Egyptian Agreement, as I said before, is of existential proportions for Greece. It ensures the area pipelines can go through, cables can be laid, and energy can be transferred from Africa to Europe; because Africa, with its large areas - especially North Africa and the Arabian Peninsula – is the place where solar energy and green hydrogen will be produced.
There is no case of delay, neither from the part of Greece, and I say this with full knowledge of the facts, nor from the Egyptian side, because I am very well aware of their way of thinking. Next week I will be in Cairo again to see Sameh Shoukry. There is no way that the Greek-Egyptian Agreement will not be fully supported by the Greek side, by any means necessary.
V. PETOURI: Right, there’s your answer Nikos, I think it was clear. Thank you very much for your contribution to the show.
N. MELETIS: I thank you too.
V. PETOURI: Minister, let us now turn to the economic aspect of this war that is affecting Greece in a period when prices are rising, following a prolonged crisis, the economic crisis from pandemic; the whole situation is the most negative to have a crisis.
Well, this whole environment is the most negative, considering the consequences of war; the consequences of the EU’s sanctions on Moscow, which put pressure not only on Vladimir Putin, but also on the European Union's national economies. There is talk of budget revisions. In this context, how do you think Europe's policy, the economic policy, will unfold in the coming period, and what does this mean for Greek economic policy?
N. DENDIAS: We have become accustomed to living through crises here in Greece. There was this huge debt crisis. As soon as it was over, the pandemic occurred, and as soon as it seemed that we are coming out of the pandemic, war broke out. This is indeed the worst possible moment: it was obvious that our country, following the two successive crises, was coming out of the woods, with a great potential for development. There was a sharp increase in foreign investment, the economic climate was very positive and Greeks were beginning to see a much better day dawning. And precisely at this point we are facing the consequences of an invasion, which, as you rightly said, causes a rise in prices, it causes inflation.
V. PETOURI: Prices were rising before the invasion, weren’t they? And the invasion is aggravating the situation.
N. DENDIAS: I want to be honest, you know. Inflationary effects were already becoming evident, due to the consequences of the pandemic.
V. PETOURI: Consumer prices were rising as well.
N. DENDIAS: There were problems with transport, with sources of supply, because suddenly demand increased without supply increasing proportionately. We were hoping we would be able to control the situation after April, because we would be returning to normal conditions, but then the Russian invasion of Ukraine came and created an explosive mix.
Eight million barrels of oil from the Russian market will be missing with each passing day; 30% of world wheat production comes from Russia and Ukraine; also nickel, a number of other metals. All of this causes inflation to rise, creates huge problems and, I'm sorry to say, the only hope to deal with them seriously is a European response.
V. PETOURI: The point is that at this moment Europe - Germany first and foremost -is hesitant to issue new money in the form of Eurobonds, which could be a solution to the problem and substantial economic lifeblood. And the question is how will it handle this crisis?
N. DENDIAS: The Greek government is doing everything possible, as it did during the pandemic. It pursued a policy in which it tried through specific, targeted welfare benefits, to support the less well-off to withstand the crisis. And I think it went well. The social fabric that could easily have been disrupted, after being weakened during the decade of the debt crisis and the pandemic, was not only maintained, but it was clear that it was about to enter a period of robust economic growth.
V. PETOURI: But do you know what is happening now, Minister? Energy costs for low-income households are too high. They have electricity bills of 500 or 600 Euros to pay, which they can’t afford.
N. DENDIAS: I completely understand that.
V. PETOURI: Citizens are at a loss; they do not know how to respond. At the same time there is a rise in consumer prices. The government announced a series of measures yesterday, which were detailed today by the Minister of Finance and the opposition claims that they are but a drop in the ocean.
N. DENDIAS: You know, in all the years I have been in politics, this has been the reaction from the opposition, no matter what governments did.
V. PETOURI: Does this include New Democracy too?
N. DENDIAS: Probably. We have not always been blameless.
V. PETOURI: You know, I'm asking a politician who is not in the habit of hiding. He rarely speaks, but whatever he has to say, he says it directly.
N. DENDIAS: We too have done governments an injustice when in opposition, but you have to always bear in mind the two key phrases - either ‘peanuts’ or ‘a drop in the ocean’. The truth is that the Mitsotakis government - you heard the Prime Minister yesterday - pursued a benefit policy during the pandemic, which cost over 40 billion.
This is unprecedented in the history of the country. And as prices are rising today, even not to the breaking point, it is evident that the root causes lie in the pandemic, in combination with the crisis in Ukraine.
So, the government decided to assist - but whom? The economically vulnerable, with a new financial package. If there is anyone who believes that money grows on trees and that we can find them, then we wouldn’t have any objections.
V. PETOURI: And this is a standard argument….
N. DENDIAS: Yes, but there is a rationale here you know: the state budget, Greece is an economy of 200 billion, that’s what it is currently. We hope to grow it. This budget provides specific fiscal room. Whoever claims that we do not spend enough has the obligation to say where more money can be found. I realise the need to assist, especially the more economically vulnerable.
V. PETOURI: But who suggested there should be a cap on fuel prices, and to make use of the European Union’s toolbox?
N. DENDIAS: Pardon me. The term ‘cap’ does not mean finding money. It means a price limit. The problem which…
V. PETOURI: But it means that consumers do not lose more income.
N. DENDIAS: Yes, but it also means less public revenue in case certain prices of basic goods increase. I'm not saying that we will not take any measures necessary at some point. I am simply saying that whoever proposes measures should also have an obligation to explain the way to cover the state budget deficits. This is what constitutes a serious and responsible opposition. And I should also say that there is no chance that we will not exhaust every possibility of supporting the more economically vulnerable. New Democracy, you know, is a people's party. Our historical title is “The Popular Party”.
V. PETOURI: When you said “there is no chance that we will not exhaust”, I thought you would answer my next question without me having to ask. What some people say lately, that these announcements are of an electioneering nature and we are talking about early elections here.
N. DENDIAS: But I think the Prime Minister has stated his position on this so many times that most people are literally sick and tired of hearing it. The Prime Minister has an institutional concept of things, and what he both believes and says is that political life will only be normalised if governments complete their term of office.
Beyond that, as I want to speak the truth, if something completely extraordinary occurs that requires Greek society to express its opinion before a choice is made, then I think it would be unconstitutional not to ask it.
V. PETOURI: I would like to conclude this interview by returning to foreign policy and to briefly summarise the main axes of Greek foreign policy as they stand now, during Nikos Dendias’ term in office.
N. DENDIAS: No, you will allow me to tell you, during the Mitsotakis government’s term in office and, to a great extent, with an overwhelming national consensus, as demonstrated in Parliament yesterday.
First of all, Greek foreign policy has adapted to the 21st century. What does this mean? Globalisation has shortened distances and increased the need for communication and influence. So, Greece attempted to have contacts with countries and explore possibilities that previously were beyond its horizon. It has signed 146 bilateral and approximately 40 multilateral agreements in the course of almost three years.
It has created a broader space of understandings, on the basis of International Law, which allows for the promotion of its interests and views, but also lays the ground to advance its exports and capabilities.
Greece views the Arab Peninsula, the Gulf region, Africa and the countries of the wider Indo-Pacific region, that have the same perception of International Law as ours, even Latin-American countries that share the same views, as countries with which it needs to foster relations.
We need to escape the narrow Balkan surroundings and mentality - without meaning that the Balkans do not concern us or that we are not interested in them – and open ourselves up to the new order of things.
On the other hand, we should have contacts and deepen our bilateral relations with the member states of the European Union.
In my opinion, the belief that our membership in the European Union would ensure our bilateral relations within the Union was rather problematic. There had not been a Minister of Foreign Affairs’ visit to the UK since 2013. How can this be? The UK is a member of the UN Security Council. Brazil is a member of the UN Security Council. There has never been a visit by a Greek Minister of Foreign Affairs to this country.
V. PETOURI: Are you referring to your predecessor, or the one that came before him, or to all of them?
N. DENDIAS: No. I am referring to our mentality. Since I came to this Ministry, I have not uttered a word of criticism against any previous Minister of Foreign Affairs. I consider it to be inappropriate.
V. PETOURI: This is true.
N. DENDIAS: It is important to have a clear perception, to debate in Parliament, to discuss with the parties informally, but clearly, so that everyone can state their views and all of us can achieve national goals. We are neither too big nor too many to afford the luxury of serious disagreements between us. And you will allow me to tell you something that has left a mark on me as a lesson in history.
Historically speaking, Hellenism was divided over foreign policy issues. We cannot allow that to happen again.
V. PETOURI: This is true. And it has caused tragedies, national tragedies.
N. DENDIAS: Major tragedies. A hundred years have passed since 1922.
V. PETOURI: Thank you so much for this interview at this crucial moment.
N. DENDIAS: I thank you warmly.
V. PETOURI: I wish you every success with your contacts in New York. And now, back to the studio.
March 19, 2022